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Ask HN: Do you know what is going on at Wise?

113 points by ritzaco 3y ago

So my general impression is that Wise (the FinTech company/ previously TransferWise) generally has (had?) great reputation for excellent customer service and a good product. I certainly appreciated unparalleled service for them until they froze my account a few weeks ago and changed my incoming US bank details with 2 working days' notice (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37925678). I thought this was a coincidence, but since then I've read or heard a bunch of reports and maybe it is not in fact a coincidence. - Changed US bank details at short notice, caused operational chaos for anyone using them for incoming payments as all incoming payments to the "old" details bounced: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37936076 - Deactivated all US debit cards on 2 working days' notice, making a very fun weekend for anyone who had a wise card loaded into 100+ SaaS services I assume https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38046293 - Not limited to US as there are accounts of them blocking Europe-based businesses (mine above and also e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38047863) - Reports on places like https://www.facebook.com/groups/transferwisevictims/ of people taking 3.5 months to get their funds returned - I randomly mentioned Wise problems to a friend and she immediately said "Oh wow I closed my account in the US and used them to transfer all the funds to Europe. They just 'lost' the transfer as it's now gone from my US account and is not credited to my Europe account and they will not help me find it' Maybe a coincidence as I am aware of frequency illusions etc, but I wondered if anyone knows of any wider potential liquidity or solvency issues that they might be having, (linked to having to move away from Community Federal Savings Bank at short notice maybe?) which means they are playing these games with delaying tactics? I was just told that they need an extension for "reasons beyond their control" and will add 35 *working* days to the normal 14 calendar days response time for complaints.

jokethrowaway 3y ago
Do you have anything to do with crypto? I've been hearing all sort of stories from crypto people having trouble recently (both banks and money transmitter, no one on wise though, actually someone I know started using wise after problems with revolut)
- ritzaco 3y ago
  Nope, if you read the first thread I linked I describe the business (technical writing) a bit.
- TheCapeGreek 3y ago
  Crypto is the scapegoat excuse when the org doesn't want to give you a straight answer. One of my bank accounts straight up won't let me send any money to Wise by any means. At first they told me "because legally we can only facilitate crypto related transactions at X sanctioned institutions". Then when I pressed them that Wise is unrelated to crypto, the story changed to "regulations prevent us from allowing you to send money abroad in this way". This was another half-truth, because despite South Africa's capital controls, not a single other bank I've used Wise with has blocked my transactions. So it's clearly just a tactic to get me to use that bank's forex for my international transfers.
abdullahkhalids 3y ago
What are credible alternatives to Wise?
- ritzaco 3y ago
  Payoneer, Revolut, and Airwallex are probably the closest in feature set. Using Payoneer at the moment. There are also currency exchange platforms like OFX and Currencies Direct and contractor management platforms like Remote.com and Lano.io, but it's hard to find something that does all-in-one (incoming payments, outgoing payments, virtual cards, batch payments).
  - jddj 3y ago
    I thought revolut used wise under the hood for Forex?
- jkepler 3y ago
  Maybe revolut.com.
- ornornor 3y ago
  Revolut has very questionable business practices like having candidates work for the company for free just for a chance at an interview and a sick CEO that demands people work on Sundays.
  - jakub_g 3y ago
    Also, Revolut has pulled off a super shady move this summer where they moved EU customers' US stock accounts to EU, and in the process, changed the insurance from "500k per account" to "500k overall for all customers" (meaning, a few dollars per customer). https://old.reddit.com/r/Revolut/comments/12ssmnq/revolut_is_changing_the_trading_terms/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Revolut/comments/12ssmnq/revolut_is... Beyond unbelievable.
    - moffkalast 3y ago
      Yeah both Revolut and N26 are involved in a constant stream of complaints from people on social media, I guess this adds Wise to the group of shady fintech corps that probably shouldn't be trusted with anything. I suppose that only leaves regional banks to fall back on, the devil you know.
colesantiago 3y ago
Did you try contacting Wise about this is unfortunate for Wise to do this, thankfully this is not the not the majority of people's experience with Wise. If you're involved with crypto or any illicit activity this could be the trigger for this. Wise is known not to be kind to those who are involved in crypto activity.
- ritzaco 3y ago
  Yes I called them nearly daily in the beginning. I have also been corresponding with them by email and Twitter. Both the complaints and customer support team only give me canned responses saying they know it's disappointing but they need more time.
Canada 3y ago
This is how we can all expect to be treated in a cashless society.
nyargh 3y ago
Got burned by Wise doing an international transfer a few years back. Money was withdrawn but never reached the receiving bank. Wise wouldn't help at all, even after getting a statement from my sending bank that Wise had my money. Never again. OFX is boring but has good spreads, always been able to reach a human and always worked for me for international transfers.
- kodapoda 3y ago
  Interesting, I use Wise fairly often, didn't realize they have such nonexistent support. Will look into other options, my transfers are critical.
  - nyargh 3y ago
    Which transfers aren't important though? I don't imagine anyone expects less than 100% performance when it comes to sending their own money. I was shocked at how they handled my case, but have seen many more horror stories since.
    - swores 3y ago
      Obviously everyone wants 100%, but there's still a big difference between sending a friend $20 (if you're someone who, if something goes wrong, can afford to send a second $20 without really noticing your bank balance change) vs sending somebody 50k.
      - throwaheyy 3y ago
        I'd disagree. For financial services, one cent unaccounted for is failure.
        swores 3y ago
        Of course it's a failure, but the context was whether all transactions are equally important from a user point of view, not the business point of view. If a financial company fucks up and loses me $20 because of it, it could mean I never use that company again (because how can I trust them not to fuck up for more money next time, if they don't fix this time?) but it doesn't make me feel that the $20 lost is important.
rundmc 3y ago
I've been with them since the beginning and have had my suggestions included in the UI (e.g. account nicknames) but as far as I can tell they're in some sort of freefall. Something has gone badly wrong in there and the only answer is to close the accounts and move away asap. That's what I'm almost finished doing for my 4 companies and shortly my personal account.
- rundmc 3y ago
  FYI, after looking at about 20 banks we opted to go with Amnis in CH which uses Currency Cloud as its backbone. Their UI is excellent and I've just noted that they have a double-sided reward for new clients such that if you register with amnis using a referral code (e.g. mine: 08e57b) and make your first transaction, they will pay you CHF 200. You can sign up directly here https://app.amnistreasury.com/create-an-account https://app.amnistreasury.com/create-an-account.
yoaviram 3y ago
I run two nonprofits using wise. With both I have experienced several sudden account suspensions pending further verification. Twice (once with each account) they have asked me to upload a recent statement from our bank as proof of funds. Only problem is that they are our only bank. Sounds straight forward enough but not to them. In one case, this sad state of affairs took over a month to resolve. For over a month an alternative elementary school I founded had to run without a bank account. No supplies, no salaries. In the other case it "only" took a week to resolve. If anyone has a recommendation for a challenger bank in the EU which works with nonprofits I'd love to hear about it.
- ornornor 3y ago
  Don’t know if they’d suit your requirements but I’ve been pretty happy with N26.
- j0k3r_85 3y ago
  Full disclosure I work there. I would suggest using Revolut as an alternative. They are pretty good at getting problems resolved reasonably quickly.
  - swores 3y ago
    Two days ago I read a comment containing this mention of Revolut, might you be able to counter what was said? > "And please, do not recommend Revolut, look up their 2021 audit and the lack of 2022 accounts, so far. Not touching that. If and when they can convince the brits they are gucci I will take a look, not until." By user chx at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38047491 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38047491 (end of that comment) I'll reply to their comment too, linking here, in case they see it and might have more to add on the subject here.
    - throwaway2037 3y ago
      According to Financial Times [1], Revolut submitted their application for a UK banking license in 2021. To be clear, it is still pending. (Tip: Run away!) I think it is a terrible idea to keep more than 1000 EUR (or equiv) with them. Only an amount that you can 100% afford to lose. Their audits are smelly as hell. And why would you "bank" with an org that isn't licensed... for banking? The unnecessary risks that people take with their finances are just bizarre to me. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/6d2eef34-d414-49c7-8557-c43a3d9ab803 https://www.ft.com/content/6d2eef34-d414-49c7-8557-c43a3d9ab...
n_ary 3y ago
Something indeed is mysterious. Previously, I could generate a virtual CreditCard on the fly for random* online purchases but today while checking for some things, I can suddenly no longer generate any new ones anymore. Also, here in EU they were happily paying interest on current balance due to recent interest rate hike, but suddenly a while back this interest generation has to be claimed by moving money from current to "Jar" thing and accept some terms, which is a bit dramatic IMO.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  Hmm, just tried it and I was able to generate a new digital card without any issues. Could be that you've hit some kind of max cards limit?
refurb 3y ago
Go onto a Facebook and search "Wise". You'll find a handful of group where people are selling/buying validated Wise accounts. They have really big issues with money laundering and fraud. My guess is they either got a stern warning from regulators or are being proactive at try to eliminate the fraud. And not in a "this is our 2024 goal" but a "we better do this now or risk getting shut down". So massive changes to account validation are happening and customer service isn't prepared.
NicoJuicy 3y ago
Lol. I logged in and it did even redirect to the correct url :o It should have been https://wise.com/user/account https://wise.com/user/account but it redirected me to : https://wise.com/%2Fuser%2Faccount%2F https://wise.com/%2Fuser%2Faccount%2F
gorbypark 3y ago
This makes me pretty nervous. I am having a go at being a "digital nomad" and use Wise as my primary "bank". I only have one customer, paying EU into a EU IBAN and then I am just using Apple Pay to pay for my daily needs. I have about 10k EUR in the account...I want to move it, but I also don't want to pay the conversion fees into my home currency, and then back again (I am mainly based in Europe and spending Euros).
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  If you are based in Europe, then open a regular retail bank account denominated in EUR and transfer your money. It seems simple enough. Then, you can stop doing business with Wise. If you are not doing "digital nomad" legally, then I have little sympathy for your situation.
  - jddj 3y ago
    > It seems simple enough That depends where in Europe
  - gorbypark 3y ago
    Everything is more or less completely legal since the Wise account is "domiciled" in Canada and I will be paying taxes on the income in Canada. I just don't want to convert the Euros into CAD, send them back to my real bank in Canada and then have to pay the 2.5% conversion fee to spend in Euros (or any other currency in places I might end up in). I don't have a permanent visa here yet so I don't believe I can easily just open a bank account.
throwaway2037 3y ago
I randomly mentioned Wise problems to a friend and she immediately said "Oh wow I closed my account in the US and used them to transfer all the funds to Europe. They just 'lost' the transfer as it's now gone from my US account and is not credited to my Europe account and they will not help me find it' They should report this to their local state attorney, or the state attorney where Wise is registered in the United States. Also, if the amount is small enough, she can sue them in small claims court.
oumua_don17 3y ago
Are all these issues with Wise business accounts or with personal accounts as well? I have a personal account; should I just close it as I hardly use it?
gu009 3y ago
Longtime Wise user here, and recently I've been having an issue too, but one I haven't seen posted here as yet. My account has been flagged several times for "speculative currency trading", even though that's not what I'm doing, and my usage patterns haven't really changed much since I started using the platform. If you set up a transfer and don't fund it immediately, or you cancel it and set up another transfer within a narrow time window where the exchange rate has changed to your benefit, the system thinks you're speculating. This never happened to prior to the last 12 months or so, and recently it seems they're flagging transfers this way much more often. Seems like it's probably due to overall volatility in certain currencies being higher over the last year or so. The "penalty" they apply is just that you can't "lock" an exchange rate for international transfers anymore. Usually, your exchange rate is locked at the market rate at the time the transfer is initiated, and then you have a time limit to fund the transfer at the rate you locked. But now, when you initiate a transfer they add a 3% "buffer" on top of the funds required to fund the transfer, and they apply the market rate at the time they receive the funds, and then refund you whatever the difference is.
acgourley 3y ago
Bank of America has started refusing to let me transfer to the new Chase account for Wise US, saying their account has been flagged for fraud.
vsl 3y ago
> generally has (had?) great reputation for excellent customer service and a good product They used to have great support - actual competent humans would respond and handle the issue. Since at least a year ago, their support is utter shit. Just boilerplate without reading the ticket, every single time.

jlokier 3y ago

Unfortunately I had a similar thing happen with my Revolut account as people are reporting with Wise. Revolut blocked my account when it contained the money I needed to pay a bill, and it took 5 days to unblock the account with atrocious customer support throughout. The only means of contact was in-app chat, and I would often not get a reply for 6 to 12 hours. Sometimes the agent would abandon, saying it was the end of their shift, but I wouldn't be transferred to anyone else When I did get a reply it was so many hours later, and bizarrely in the middle of the night, that I was asleep by then. The agent would close the chat as I wasn't responding in a couple of minutes. This pattern by itself took days. During that time I was asked to (and did) upload numerous photos of other bank cards that they requested, then they asked for more, then to do it again, and nothing seemed to progress. Just groundhog day with each new agent. What worked for me in the end was social media: I replied to something from Revolut on Facebook. As if by magic, within a few minutes I got a message from someone saying I would shortly be contacted by customer support and they would unblock my account. Miracously the impossible happened and the whole thing from my Facebook message to unblocked account took about 20 minutes, no id or photos or long chats required. After 5 days burdensome nonsense that seemed stuck forever. I took my money out straight away, and I've avoided storing more than a small balance on my Revolut account ever since. I use it daily but will never store much balance. They'd like me to use it as my main current account, for salary etc. No way would I take that risk with Revolut now! Separately, after using the account for a year or so I was asked to provide a photo of valid passport or driving license (or maybe some other options I don't recall) which I had already gone through with them when opening the account. This prompted me to ask what they do for people without either, as many people in the UK don't have any of their short list of required documents. Their answer was matter of fact: We don't provide accounts to those people even though we know there are many of them. If they had an account already, they'd have to close it. That really bothered me. I was able to comply, though I too would fail now since my passport expired during the pandemic and I haven't renewed yet. On a related note, someone recently sent me a small amount, a nice gesture, using Western Union money transfer. We all assumed I could collect the money from a Weetern Union service desk in town, because that's what Western Union is known for. To my amazement I was unable to collect the money because they required types of id I didn't have, and none of my family had either. I'm a company director with public records, and countless bank accounts and other ways to transfer money, including Revolut and Wise. Yet I wasn't able to collect a small cash gift from Western Union, the service that is supposed to be for everyone. The desk staff confirmed, that's just how it is. We had to tell the sender they had to go to the sending office and ask for their money back. They struggled to believe we had no way to pick it up. Don't get me started on Barclays... Rejected our business address "because we looked online and it says your address is a co-working space". It isn't, it's a big building "innovation centre" where many serious companies rent private offices (including private mail and reception service), which happens to have a tiny co-working space downstairs (which we were not using), whose marketing they found. Barclays were having none of it and said they would have to close the business account unless we changed address to another building. The agent confirmed if any of the other companies were using Barclays they'd have the same problem. The troubles at Wise bother me as I use it a lot for cross-border business transactions and keep.a healthy balance in there in multiple currencies. It's been excellent for me so far, noticeably better than all other banks or quasi-banks I've used (many). I don't trust Revolut (due to the above experiences) and I don't know of another good and fast service with low currency conversion costs in the UK.

throwaway2037 3y ago
Real question: What identity documents are required to open a retail bank account on "High Street" in the UK?
- rwmj 3y ago
  Here's the list for Barclays banks: https://www.barclays.co.uk/personal/current-accounts/what-do-i-need-to-open-a-bank-account/ https://www.barclays.co.uk/personal/current-accounts/what-do... In my experience this kind of thing ("document from list A, another document from list B") is fairly common, as the UK does not have any sort of common identity card, plus there are lots of corner cases such as foreigners with residency rights. It's actually getting harder to do as more and more utility bills move to paperless.
- jlokier 3y ago
  Last time I opened a personal bank account with a high street branch was 25 years ago, and I think I took my birth certificate. These days, looking at the Barclays list from the sibling comment, I'd use a letter from HMRC, which I have, but many people in regular salaried employment don't (income tax is completely automated for most). Other than an HMRC letter, it look like I don't have anything that qualifies as an Id document in the Barclays list. So I couldn't open a high street bank account today if I wanted to. I actually couldn't vote in the last local election, since they introduced new Id requirements for that, and by the time I learned of the new requirements I had no way to vote. I've voted for decades; that was the first time I couldn't, and hopefully the last as well.
throwaway2037 3y ago
Western Union: What forms of ID do they accept? And what do you have? This post is growing on me...
- jlokier 3y ago
  From their web page: passport; EU/EEA-issued ID; driving license; residence permit; emergency passport or travel document; asylum seeker residence permit; ship passport. (Plus a separate proof of address, which was not a problem.) A lot of people in th UK don't have a currently valid passport or driving license, especially after not travelling for a few years due to the pandemic, or if they are young, or old, or never left the country. The other items in the list are unlikely for a UK citizen in the UK. The nearest I had was a passport which had expired just a few months before but they wouldn't accept it. They required a currently valid passport. That's unusual; many places accept an expired passport especially if it's recently expired. I really didn't expect such a restrictive id list to receive a small cash transfer from Western Union of all places. The whole point is you go in and show the receipt the sender gave you so you can collect.