5 ms·

To be honest I think this IS pro-consumer. The amount of cheating from peripheral devices is ridiculous. For example triggers that make semi-automatic weapons f

To be honest I think this IS pro-consumer. The amount of cheating from peripheral devices is ridiculous. For example triggers that make semi-automatic weapons fully automatic, or using a M&K for Halo where headshots are instant kills on Swat/Snipes game modes and the advantage is ridiculous. People have been complaining against third party controllers for years and I'd be happier playing online when I know everyone is using the same rules. Game developers have never managed to solve this, and it is killing off games for a lot of people, so if this is required to stop cheating I'm for it. For people downvoting, you've never played a fighting game against someone with a modded controller to do frame-perfect combos with a single button press.

Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
Thing is, it won't stop modded controllers / M&K convertors. Sure it will be a speed bump as existing controllers on the market will become paperweights, but modded controllers have been a thing since at least the 360 days, and back then they were just official controllers with a microcontroller soldered in. The older K&M convertors would require a wired controller to be connected to them so they could pass the auth check. All it will do is send it back to those days and remove choice for gamers who want to use unofficial controllers for legit reasons such as some of the fighting sticks on the market. How pissed would we be if MS forced keyboard manufacturers went though validation before they would work in Windows and tried to claim its for the users protection against hardware keyloggers? EDITED: to give some additional points
- vasdae 3y ago
  Yes, it would be really easy. You "just" have to be able to buy thousands of official controllers and solder a microcontroller on them. And then resell them. Without getting sued. Or teach people to solder the microcontroller themselves. Yes, there will always people cheating no matter what. But as long as you reduce their numbers substantially, it is worth it.
  - Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
    > Yes, it would be really easy. You "just" have to be able to buy thousands of official controllers and solder a microcontroller on them. And then resell them. Without getting sued. That's exactly what people did back in the day, First-sale doctrine allows for this (Heck some modders I knew back in the day simply brought them in bulk at wholesale). Modders either brought controllers retail, modded them and put a mark up on them, or people would send in their own controller to be modded. But those selling wired K&M convertors just decided they would pass though the challenge/response commands to a offical wired controller the user would have to purchase themselves (saves the manufacturer the need to purchase them). > Or teach people to solder the microcontroller themselves. There were plenty of sites with open source rapid fire microcontroller firmware and install guides for those who didn't want to pay others to mod their controller for them. It was simply VCC, GND, each of the trigger inputs, a connection to the sync button, and a connection to one of the LEDs to give feedback to the user which mode the controller was in. Heck it was on the skill level needed to mod a PS1 and those services were ten a penny. Heck it got to the point where drop in PCBs where being created where castellations on the PCB were in just the right spot to solder.
  - jauntywundrkind 3y ago
    Not loving the way you steamroll through the already super sensible super easy path & project the ultra hard mode as the only option. > The older K&M convertors would require a wired controller to be connected to them so they could pass the auth check. This seems like it'll barely be a speed bump. A bunch of folks will have to get new cheating gear, which will be a temporary reprieve, but most probably will do just that.
    - Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
      Personally I’ve been out of the whole controller modding scene for a while, but the xim devs ( they made one of the first mass market K&M converters) don’t seem too worried about this update because they require the use of an official controller to handle the auth challenge & response. It seems as of now, MS are only targeting unofficial controllers that circumvent the existing auth check (which some of the full custom built cheat controllers as well as other unofficial 3rd party controllers. So (imo) it will have very little impact on cheat controllers at all and will mainly affect those who just tried to save a few bucks.
PebblesHD 3y ago
>> or using a M&K for Halo where headshots are instant kills on Swat/Snipes game modes By this do you mean a mouse and keyboard? And you consider this to be cheating? For the others, I feel like banning all third party peripherals is just going to disadvantage kids like I was who always had hand-me-down madcatz controllers because we couldn’t spring 3x the price for the official sony ones. If this is such an issue, perhaps the game makers could balance it out a-la mario cart and detect likely cheaters and handicap them until the game balances out?
- eddtries 3y ago
  > By this do you mean a mouse and keyboard? And you consider this to be cheating? Yep! The way they tried to get around this was by allowing you to only play with people using the same type of controller, but you can mod your keyboard to look like a controller and get in regardless. It is a HUGE advantage for those game modes. I played pretty competitive Halo 3 for several years, including a couple tournaments, and on a controller I get completely steamrolled by a decent player with an M&K. There are other games with other examples but the ability to point and click vs using your thumb to make similar micro-movements on a thumbstick is just night and day. Apex Legends had similar issues where particular movements aren't even possible on a keyboard! If you have to register with a controller I think that could solve a lot of these issues for gamers. I do understand what you're saying about madcatz though, and appreciate that controllers are expensive. What I'd really like is to introduce this limit to official controllers and then slowly allow third-party companies to offer official alternatives. Or, even better, only have this restriction for online gaming. I don't care what people do offline!
  - guntherhermann 3y ago
    It's very funny to me, as in the 90s when console FPSes first started coming out there were always debates on PC vs Console in school, and whether mouse and keyboard was better than joypad, I guess now everyone knows the answer
    - zztop44 3y ago
lkramer 3y ago
Then they could block it for online play only.
morpheuskafka 3y ago
Why can’t they just crack open the official controller and wire up to the buttons, while leaving all the communication logic intact?
- eddtries 3y ago
  I couldn't do that myself! I might be able to buy one of those, but then if there's a chance they could be banned at any time if they're detected is it a viable business model? Not including the fact if you control the hardware you know things like max trigger presses per second, so if you detect an order of magnitude more than you assume possible you'd catch hackers there too. Edit: I'm not saying I have all the answers here, but modded controllers and M&Ks made to look like controllers have been a bane in my online gaming life for years so I'm keen for any steps moving towards fair (competitive) gaming.
m4rtink 3y ago
Aren't most console games single player ?
- eddtries 3y ago
  The best selling games are almost entirely online focused. Not all, for example Assassins Creed, but Apex Legends, Pubg, GTA V, Halo, Fifa, Minecraft, Roblox, Battlefield, Forza, are all primarily or only online.
spicyjpeg 3y ago
Perhaps Microsoft should start addressing that by pulling their own fully certified "build your controller" kit [1] from the market, or banning it from online multiplayer games. If they really want to get serious about it they could even add anti-tamper seals to their controllers to stop cheaters from opening them up and soldering wires to the button pads, which is still a surprisingly common thing to do. Granted, both approaches require expensive parts and a lot of work, but I would argue that cheaters are a minority and are going to cheat no matter what (and most of the more advanced cheating devices I have seen are not particularly cheap or easy to buy either). Third-party accessory manufacturers are the real target here. While I appreciate Microsoft's desire to crack down on cheating and make sure players will only use high quality peripherals rather than AliExpress specials, enforcing cryptographic attestation to lock competitors out is not the right way to accomplish it. [1] https://www.xbox.com/en-US/accessories/controllers/xbox-adaptive-controller https://www.xbox.com/en-US/accessories/controllers/xbox-adap...
neurostimulant 3y ago
What's stopping those cheat device vendors to use boards from licensed controllers and modify it?
raffraffraff 3y ago
I only play Xonotic these days. A ridiculously old game, pure adrenaline arena shooter. Everybody uses keyboard and mouse, apart from one guy who uses a game controller. He's extremely good, knows the game extremely well and has been playing Xonotic for years I think. But he just can't compete with the better players who are (presumably) using standard PC controls. I've seen forums where console gamers think that mouse is "basically cheating, worse than aimbots". But when it's a flat playing field and everybody is using a mouse, there's such a chasm between the top 5% of players and the rest of the field. There's one regular player who is constantly accused of cheating. Even seasoned players think it but most aren't brave enough to say it. Some players absolutely hate him and start shit-talking him as soon as he joins. People take this stuff seriously.
- eddtries 3y ago
  > People take this stuff seriously. Yep! And let's not forget eSports is booming and these online tournaments have real cash prizes nowadays. There are incentives to cheat and reducing third-party hardware might help reduce that.
nine_k 3y ago
This is a hopeless fight. You cannot mod a real-life machine gun to shoot 10x as fast by changing the trigger; the whole design would resist the attempt. You cannot make a real-life human body make a 180° turn in 10 ms and then stand still; the laws of mechanics won't allow that. If you want a guaranteed balanced game, the game code should observe these limitations, no matter what controller is used. What is possible in the game world should not depend on that. As long as games allow for inputs that give an unfair advantage, people will find ways to use that unfair advantage. They will take apart a certified controller, connect the buttons to devices that produce fast repetition, connect the thumb joysticks to devices that allow faster movement, etc. There is no way to plug this hole, like the analog hole in sound recording. The only way is a correct model.
- eddtries 3y ago
  You can do both! Neither work in isolation.
- bbradley406 3y ago
  One of the common modifications for controllers is thumb-stick extenders that simply make the analog input more precise, not "faster". I don't think you can detect this using your strategy, since there is no change to the electronics of the controller. To the console and game software it just looks like the player is more accurate than others, and reducing the in-game look and movement speed wouldn't remove the advantage. Some combination of heuristics (target acquisition time, moving target tracking, etc) would probably be the only way. But what if a player is genuinely exceptional - should they be punished for that?
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  You can’t mod a machine gun to shoot faster by modifying the trigger (probably?) but you can mod a non automatic weapon to basically become automatic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_stock https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_stock
  - throwaway49594 3y ago
    A bump stock is barely a weapon modification. There are videos of people using nothing but a wooden dowel to bump fire.
thiht 3y ago
Couldn't they just detect the controller used, and make rooms that only allow people using official controllers for example? And rooms allowing any controller, so that people who want to use a modded controller can still have their fun. Fun is the main point after all. This is obviously possible since they're able to ban unofficial peripherals

Crosseye_Jack 3y ago

Thing is, it won't stop modded controllers / M&K convertors. Sure it will be a speed bump as existing controllers on the market will become paperweights, but modded controllers have been a thing since at least the 360 days, and back then they were just official controllers with a microcontroller soldered in. The older K&M convertors would require a wired controller to be connected to them so they could pass the auth check. All it will do is send it back to those days and remove choice for gamers who want to use unofficial controllers for legit reasons such as some of the fighting sticks on the market. How pissed would we be if MS forced keyboard manufacturers went though validation before they would work in Windows and tried to claim its for the users protection against hardware keyloggers? EDITED: to give some additional points

vasdae 3y ago
Yes, it would be really easy. You "just" have to be able to buy thousands of official controllers and solder a microcontroller on them. And then resell them. Without getting sued. Or teach people to solder the microcontroller themselves. Yes, there will always people cheating no matter what. But as long as you reduce their numbers substantially, it is worth it.
- Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
  > Yes, it would be really easy. You "just" have to be able to buy thousands of official controllers and solder a microcontroller on them. And then resell them. Without getting sued. That's exactly what people did back in the day, First-sale doctrine allows for this (Heck some modders I knew back in the day simply brought them in bulk at wholesale). Modders either brought controllers retail, modded them and put a mark up on them, or people would send in their own controller to be modded. But those selling wired K&M convertors just decided they would pass though the challenge/response commands to a offical wired controller the user would have to purchase themselves (saves the manufacturer the need to purchase them). > Or teach people to solder the microcontroller themselves. There were plenty of sites with open source rapid fire microcontroller firmware and install guides for those who didn't want to pay others to mod their controller for them. It was simply VCC, GND, each of the trigger inputs, a connection to the sync button, and a connection to one of the LEDs to give feedback to the user which mode the controller was in. Heck it was on the skill level needed to mod a PS1 and those services were ten a penny. Heck it got to the point where drop in PCBs where being created where castellations on the PCB were in just the right spot to solder.
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  Not loving the way you steamroll through the already super sensible super easy path & project the ultra hard mode as the only option. > The older K&M convertors would require a wired controller to be connected to them so they could pass the auth check. This seems like it'll barely be a speed bump. A bunch of folks will have to get new cheating gear, which will be a temporary reprieve, but most probably will do just that.
  - Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
    Personally I’ve been out of the whole controller modding scene for a while, but the xim devs ( they made one of the first mass market K&M converters) don’t seem too worried about this update because they require the use of an official controller to handle the auth challenge & response. It seems as of now, MS are only targeting unofficial controllers that circumvent the existing auth check (which some of the full custom built cheat controllers as well as other unofficial 3rd party controllers. So (imo) it will have very little impact on cheat controllers at all and will mainly affect those who just tried to save a few bucks.

PebblesHD 3y ago

>> or using a M&K for Halo where headshots are instant kills on Swat/Snipes game modes By this do you mean a mouse and keyboard? And you consider this to be cheating? For the others, I feel like banning all third party peripherals is just going to disadvantage kids like I was who always had hand-me-down madcatz controllers because we couldn’t spring 3x the price for the official sony ones. If this is such an issue, perhaps the game makers could balance it out a-la mario cart and detect likely cheaters and handicap them until the game balances out?

eddtries 3y ago
> By this do you mean a mouse and keyboard? And you consider this to be cheating? Yep! The way they tried to get around this was by allowing you to only play with people using the same type of controller, but you can mod your keyboard to look like a controller and get in regardless. It is a HUGE advantage for those game modes. I played pretty competitive Halo 3 for several years, including a couple tournaments, and on a controller I get completely steamrolled by a decent player with an M&K. There are other games with other examples but the ability to point and click vs using your thumb to make similar micro-movements on a thumbstick is just night and day. Apex Legends had similar issues where particular movements aren't even possible on a keyboard! If you have to register with a controller I think that could solve a lot of these issues for gamers. I do understand what you're saying about madcatz though, and appreciate that controllers are expensive. What I'd really like is to introduce this limit to official controllers and then slowly allow third-party companies to offer official alternatives. Or, even better, only have this restriction for online gaming. I don't care what people do offline!
- guntherhermann 3y ago
  It's very funny to me, as in the 90s when console FPSes first started coming out there were always debates on PC vs Console in school, and whether mouse and keyboard was better than joypad, I guess now everyone knows the answer
  - zztop44 3y ago

lkramer 3y ago

Then they could block it for online play only.

morpheuskafka 3y ago

Why can’t they just crack open the official controller and wire up to the buttons, while leaving all the communication logic intact?

eddtries 3y ago
I couldn't do that myself! I might be able to buy one of those, but then if there's a chance they could be banned at any time if they're detected is it a viable business model? Not including the fact if you control the hardware you know things like max trigger presses per second, so if you detect an order of magnitude more than you assume possible you'd catch hackers there too. Edit: I'm not saying I have all the answers here, but modded controllers and M&Ks made to look like controllers have been a bane in my online gaming life for years so I'm keen for any steps moving towards fair (competitive) gaming.

m4rtink 3y ago

Aren't most console games single player ?

eddtries 3y ago
The best selling games are almost entirely online focused. Not all, for example Assassins Creed, but Apex Legends, Pubg, GTA V, Halo, Fifa, Minecraft, Roblox, Battlefield, Forza, are all primarily or only online.

spicyjpeg 3y ago

Perhaps Microsoft should start addressing that by pulling their own fully certified "build your controller" kit [1] from the market, or banning it from online multiplayer games. If they really want to get serious about it they could even add anti-tamper seals to their controllers to stop cheaters from opening them up and soldering wires to the button pads, which is still a surprisingly common thing to do. Granted, both approaches require expensive parts and a lot of work, but I would argue that cheaters are a minority and are going to cheat no matter what (and most of the more advanced cheating devices I have seen are not particularly cheap or easy to buy either). Third-party accessory manufacturers are the real target here. While I appreciate Microsoft's desire to crack down on cheating and make sure players will only use high quality peripherals rather than AliExpress specials, enforcing cryptographic attestation to lock competitors out is not the right way to accomplish it. [1] https://www.xbox.com/en-US/accessories/controllers/xbox-adaptive-controller https://www.xbox.com/en-US/accessories/controllers/xbox-adap...

neurostimulant 3y ago

What's stopping those cheat device vendors to use boards from licensed controllers and modify it?

raffraffraff 3y ago

I only play Xonotic these days. A ridiculously old game, pure adrenaline arena shooter. Everybody uses keyboard and mouse, apart from one guy who uses a game controller. He's extremely good, knows the game extremely well and has been playing Xonotic for years I think. But he just can't compete with the better players who are (presumably) using standard PC controls. I've seen forums where console gamers think that mouse is "basically cheating, worse than aimbots". But when it's a flat playing field and everybody is using a mouse, there's such a chasm between the top 5% of players and the rest of the field. There's one regular player who is constantly accused of cheating. Even seasoned players think it but most aren't brave enough to say it. Some players absolutely hate him and start shit-talking him as soon as he joins. People take this stuff seriously.

eddtries 3y ago
> People take this stuff seriously. Yep! And let's not forget eSports is booming and these online tournaments have real cash prizes nowadays. There are incentives to cheat and reducing third-party hardware might help reduce that.

nine_k 3y ago

This is a hopeless fight. You cannot mod a real-life machine gun to shoot 10x as fast by changing the trigger; the whole design would resist the attempt. You cannot make a real-life human body make a 180° turn in 10 ms and then stand still; the laws of mechanics won't allow that. If you want a guaranteed balanced game, the game code should observe these limitations, no matter what controller is used. What is possible in the game world should not depend on that. As long as games allow for inputs that give an unfair advantage, people will find ways to use that unfair advantage. They will take apart a certified controller, connect the buttons to devices that produce fast repetition, connect the thumb joysticks to devices that allow faster movement, etc. There is no way to plug this hole, like the analog hole in sound recording. The only way is a correct model.

eddtries 3y ago
You can do both! Neither work in isolation.
bbradley406 3y ago
One of the common modifications for controllers is thumb-stick extenders that simply make the analog input more precise, not "faster". I don't think you can detect this using your strategy, since there is no change to the electronics of the controller. To the console and game software it just looks like the player is more accurate than others, and reducing the in-game look and movement speed wouldn't remove the advantage. Some combination of heuristics (target acquisition time, moving target tracking, etc) would probably be the only way. But what if a player is genuinely exceptional - should they be punished for that?
jncfhnb 3y ago
You can’t mod a machine gun to shoot faster by modifying the trigger (probably?) but you can mod a non automatic weapon to basically become automatic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_stock https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_stock
- throwaway49594 3y ago
  A bump stock is barely a weapon modification. There are videos of people using nothing but a wooden dowel to bump fire.

thiht 3y ago

Couldn't they just detect the controller used, and make rooms that only allow people using official controllers for example? And rooms allowing any controller, so that people who want to use a modded controller can still have their fun. Fun is the main point after all. This is obviously possible since they're able to ban unofficial peripherals