11 ms·

I don’t really see any way this could not be anti-competitive. A perfectly functional peripheral was rendered non-functional at an arbitrary date with no benefi

I don’t really see any way this could not be anti-competitive. A perfectly functional peripheral was rendered non-functional at an arbitrary date with no benefit to consumers and with an obvious benefit to the party making the change in terms of increased licensing fee income. Why is this sort of behaviour allowed? Yet another move by MS contrary to the ‘see we arent the same company as we used to be’ vibe they’ve tried to cultivate.

shiroiuma 3y ago
>Yet another move by MS contrary to the ‘see we arent the same company as we used to be’ vibe they’ve tried to cultivate. If you believe their claims about that, I have a bridge to sell you...
adesanmi 3y ago
Xim users destroying the integrity of multiplayer FPS causes this, unfortunately. The fact of the matter is if you’re allowed to plug in any peripheral into a game console, you can and will get prolific cheaters in a multiplayer environment. Maybe only bring in this check if your console is not in offline mode? And please make it cheap to actually get certified. Regular accessories that don’t alter gameplay can and should always be an option for a user. If a certification process has to happen to use the accessory online, so be it, but I hope this doesn’t hurt the market too much. Edit: I’m aware that Xim currently uses controller authentication to work and therefore this specific change may not affect it. I wasn’t claiming that this would get rid of Xim, but arguing that a huge reason for this change is to begin the process of cracking down on rampant cheating in online multiplayer games (shooters in particular).
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > Maybe only bring in this check if your console is not in offline mode? Or only if you're playing a multiplayer game?
  - piaste 3y ago
    Leave that up to the game devs. Expose a platform API call with all relevant information about the accessories currently plugged into the console. That way a game can check that API whenever cheating matters for that particular game - which may mean different things: playing with strangers, playing certain 'competitive' modes, getting achievements or high scores, etc.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      That would be the best outcome, I agree.
- ZunarJ5 3y ago
  Couldn't game designers make a toggle that the game won't run with unofficial hardware? Seems like it's a bit overkill if this was simply the problem.
- bloqs 3y ago
  Except that you have fundamentally misunderstood, like so many who decide to defend big corps, the actual impact. XIM and similar tools are grey market - they do not care for compliance, nor do they mind breaking the terms of service to work. Thats the entire fucking point. They are workarounds for people wanting to either cheat or who want to hack their device for greater freedom of input. These people will.be unhindered by this change, because XIM has an excellent history of spoofing a controllers input to the console. The people who will really miss out are the younger or poorer people who will have cheaper 3rd party controllers or unofficial adapters. Less freedom for the user. More money for corpos. Sometimes I wonder if this is hackernews or corponews
  - adesanmi 3y ago
    Everyone who makes this kind of comment must not play video games online. The "money play" is a cut on digital sales, and balancing subscription fees with the cost of services rendered. I can't imagine how little they make on accessories/certification to be the reason behind this move. I think this is the start of set of changes that culminates in hardware verification for the (leaked) revision of the console. > because XIM has an excellent history of spoofing a controllers input to the console That it does now, but Microsoft can upload firmware to their devices and have full control of the software it runs on. Call of Duty is one of their biggest games, and I think being a platform that nullfies Xim and Cronus will convince people to play those games on that platform, especially with Crossplay off and the games being free on Game Pass. This makes more sense as a "money maker" to me (i.e. fuelling Game Pass subs).
- spicyjpeg 3y ago
  Microsoft will happily sell you a fully certified controller breakout box [1] into which you can plug whatever you want, including your cheating device of choice. Sure, devices like Xim might be cheaper and more convenient, but cheaters are clearly not the main target of this move. [1] https://www.xbox.com/en-US/accessories/controllers/xbox-adaptive-controller https://www.xbox.com/en-US/accessories/controllers/xbox-adap...
jwestbury 3y ago
> Yet another move by MS contrary to the ‘see we arent the same company as we used to be’ vibe they’ve tried to cultivate. I'd wholly bought into that narrative. Over the past year, I've become so opposed to Microsoft that I'm likely to make my next laptop purchase a MacBook, even though I'm a longtime PC gamer. I just refuse to use Microsoft products anymore. Apple might have their own issues, but at least they're up front about who they are.
- drekipus 3y ago
  Go Linux / steam / steamdeck. It's really good
  - aloisdg 3y ago
    Main driving linux for dev for years. Kept a dualboot at home for gaming. Switch to full linux last year. It works better and better. Proton is a bless. Thanks wine and thanks valve.
    - rekoil 3y ago
      But that's a bit of a fallacy, as Proton just makes it possible to start Windows-targeting games on Linux. So you're still benefiting from a Microsoft-dominated gaming industry whether you like it or not.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Which needs Windows software to keep going, as not even game studios targeting Android/NDK care about GNU/Linux.
eddtries 3y ago
To be honest I think this IS pro-consumer. The amount of cheating from peripheral devices is ridiculous. For example triggers that make semi-automatic weapons fully automatic, or using a M&K for Halo where headshots are instant kills on Swat/Snipes game modes and the advantage is ridiculous. People have been complaining against third party controllers for years and I'd be happier playing online when I know everyone is using the same rules. Game developers have never managed to solve this, and it is killing off games for a lot of people, so if this is required to stop cheating I'm for it. For people downvoting, you've never played a fighting game against someone with a modded controller to do frame-perfect combos with a single button press.
- Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
  Thing is, it won't stop modded controllers / M&K convertors. Sure it will be a speed bump as existing controllers on the market will become paperweights, but modded controllers have been a thing since at least the 360 days, and back then they were just official controllers with a microcontroller soldered in. The older K&M convertors would require a wired controller to be connected to them so they could pass the auth check. All it will do is send it back to those days and remove choice for gamers who want to use unofficial controllers for legit reasons such as some of the fighting sticks on the market. How pissed would we be if MS forced keyboard manufacturers went though validation before they would work in Windows and tried to claim its for the users protection against hardware keyloggers? EDITED: to give some additional points
  - vasdae 3y ago
    Yes, it would be really easy. You "just" have to be able to buy thousands of official controllers and solder a microcontroller on them. And then resell them. Without getting sued. Or teach people to solder the microcontroller themselves. Yes, there will always people cheating no matter what. But as long as you reduce their numbers substantially, it is worth it.
    - Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
      > Yes, it would be really easy. You "just" have to be able to buy thousands of official controllers and solder a microcontroller on them. And then resell them. Without getting sued. That's exactly what people did back in the day, First-sale doctrine allows for this (Heck some modders I knew back in the day simply brought them in bulk at wholesale). Modders either brought controllers retail, modded them and put a mark up on them, or people would send in their own controller to be modded. But those selling wired K&M convertors just decided they would pass though the challenge/response commands to a offical wired controller the user would have to purchase themselves (saves the manufacturer the need to purchase them). > Or teach people to solder the microcontroller themselves. There were plenty of sites with open source rapid fire microcontroller firmware and install guides for those who didn't want to pay others to mod their controller for them. It was simply VCC, GND, each of the trigger inputs, a connection to the sync button, and a connection to one of the LEDs to give feedback to the user which mode the controller was in. Heck it was on the skill level needed to mod a PS1 and those services were ten a penny. Heck it got to the point where drop in PCBs where being created where castellations on the PCB were in just the right spot to solder.

shiroiuma 3y ago

>Yet another move by MS contrary to the ‘see we arent the same company as we used to be’ vibe they’ve tried to cultivate. If you believe their claims about that, I have a bridge to sell you...

adesanmi 3y ago

Xim users destroying the integrity of multiplayer FPS causes this, unfortunately. The fact of the matter is if you’re allowed to plug in any peripheral into a game console, you can and will get prolific cheaters in a multiplayer environment. Maybe only bring in this check if your console is not in offline mode? And please make it cheap to actually get certified. Regular accessories that don’t alter gameplay can and should always be an option for a user. If a certification process has to happen to use the accessory online, so be it, but I hope this doesn’t hurt the market too much. Edit: I’m aware that Xim currently uses controller authentication to work and therefore this specific change may not affect it. I wasn’t claiming that this would get rid of Xim, but arguing that a huge reason for this change is to begin the process of cracking down on rampant cheating in online multiplayer games (shooters in particular).

robertlagrant 3y ago
> Maybe only bring in this check if your console is not in offline mode? Or only if you're playing a multiplayer game?
- piaste 3y ago
  Leave that up to the game devs. Expose a platform API call with all relevant information about the accessories currently plugged into the console. That way a game can check that API whenever cheating matters for that particular game - which may mean different things: playing with strangers, playing certain 'competitive' modes, getting achievements or high scores, etc.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    That would be the best outcome, I agree.
ZunarJ5 3y ago
Couldn't game designers make a toggle that the game won't run with unofficial hardware? Seems like it's a bit overkill if this was simply the problem.
bloqs 3y ago
Except that you have fundamentally misunderstood, like so many who decide to defend big corps, the actual impact. XIM and similar tools are grey market - they do not care for compliance, nor do they mind breaking the terms of service to work. Thats the entire fucking point. They are workarounds for people wanting to either cheat or who want to hack their device for greater freedom of input. These people will.be unhindered by this change, because XIM has an excellent history of spoofing a controllers input to the console. The people who will really miss out are the younger or poorer people who will have cheaper 3rd party controllers or unofficial adapters. Less freedom for the user. More money for corpos. Sometimes I wonder if this is hackernews or corponews
- adesanmi 3y ago
  Everyone who makes this kind of comment must not play video games online. The "money play" is a cut on digital sales, and balancing subscription fees with the cost of services rendered. I can't imagine how little they make on accessories/certification to be the reason behind this move. I think this is the start of set of changes that culminates in hardware verification for the (leaked) revision of the console. > because XIM has an excellent history of spoofing a controllers input to the console That it does now, but Microsoft can upload firmware to their devices and have full control of the software it runs on. Call of Duty is one of their biggest games, and I think being a platform that nullfies Xim and Cronus will convince people to play those games on that platform, especially with Crossplay off and the games being free on Game Pass. This makes more sense as a "money maker" to me (i.e. fuelling Game Pass subs).
spicyjpeg 3y ago
Microsoft will happily sell you a fully certified controller breakout box [1] into which you can plug whatever you want, including your cheating device of choice. Sure, devices like Xim might be cheaper and more convenient, but cheaters are clearly not the main target of this move. [1] https://www.xbox.com/en-US/accessories/controllers/xbox-adaptive-controller https://www.xbox.com/en-US/accessories/controllers/xbox-adap...

jwestbury 3y ago

> Yet another move by MS contrary to the ‘see we arent the same company as we used to be’ vibe they’ve tried to cultivate. I'd wholly bought into that narrative. Over the past year, I've become so opposed to Microsoft that I'm likely to make my next laptop purchase a MacBook, even though I'm a longtime PC gamer. I just refuse to use Microsoft products anymore. Apple might have their own issues, but at least they're up front about who they are.

drekipus 3y ago
Go Linux / steam / steamdeck. It's really good
- aloisdg 3y ago
  Main driving linux for dev for years. Kept a dualboot at home for gaming. Switch to full linux last year. It works better and better. Proton is a bless. Thanks wine and thanks valve.
  - rekoil 3y ago
    But that's a bit of a fallacy, as Proton just makes it possible to start Windows-targeting games on Linux. So you're still benefiting from a Microsoft-dominated gaming industry whether you like it or not.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Which needs Windows software to keep going, as not even game studios targeting Android/NDK care about GNU/Linux.

eddtries 3y ago

To be honest I think this IS pro-consumer. The amount of cheating from peripheral devices is ridiculous. For example triggers that make semi-automatic weapons fully automatic, or using a M&K for Halo where headshots are instant kills on Swat/Snipes game modes and the advantage is ridiculous. People have been complaining against third party controllers for years and I'd be happier playing online when I know everyone is using the same rules. Game developers have never managed to solve this, and it is killing off games for a lot of people, so if this is required to stop cheating I'm for it. For people downvoting, you've never played a fighting game against someone with a modded controller to do frame-perfect combos with a single button press.

Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
Thing is, it won't stop modded controllers / M&K convertors. Sure it will be a speed bump as existing controllers on the market will become paperweights, but modded controllers have been a thing since at least the 360 days, and back then they were just official controllers with a microcontroller soldered in. The older K&M convertors would require a wired controller to be connected to them so they could pass the auth check. All it will do is send it back to those days and remove choice for gamers who want to use unofficial controllers for legit reasons such as some of the fighting sticks on the market. How pissed would we be if MS forced keyboard manufacturers went though validation before they would work in Windows and tried to claim its for the users protection against hardware keyloggers? EDITED: to give some additional points
- vasdae 3y ago
  Yes, it would be really easy. You "just" have to be able to buy thousands of official controllers and solder a microcontroller on them. And then resell them. Without getting sued. Or teach people to solder the microcontroller themselves. Yes, there will always people cheating no matter what. But as long as you reduce their numbers substantially, it is worth it.
  - Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
    > Yes, it would be really easy. You "just" have to be able to buy thousands of official controllers and solder a microcontroller on them. And then resell them. Without getting sued. That's exactly what people did back in the day, First-sale doctrine allows for this (Heck some modders I knew back in the day simply brought them in bulk at wholesale). Modders either brought controllers retail, modded them and put a mark up on them, or people would send in their own controller to be modded. But those selling wired K&M convertors just decided they would pass though the challenge/response commands to a offical wired controller the user would have to purchase themselves (saves the manufacturer the need to purchase them). > Or teach people to solder the microcontroller themselves. There were plenty of sites with open source rapid fire microcontroller firmware and install guides for those who didn't want to pay others to mod their controller for them. It was simply VCC, GND, each of the trigger inputs, a connection to the sync button, and a connection to one of the LEDs to give feedback to the user which mode the controller was in. Heck it was on the skill level needed to mod a PS1 and those services were ten a penny. Heck it got to the point where drop in PCBs where being created where castellations on the PCB were in just the right spot to solder.