4 ms·

Calling something a "bonus" when it's actually a loan is indeed douchebaggery. If the company touted "free food", but somewhere deep in the fine print it said

Calling something a "bonus" when it's actually a loan is indeed douchebaggery. If the company touted "free food", but somewhere deep in the fine print it said that the company has the right to retroactively charge you $500 per meal if they decide they don't like you two years down the road, that would also be douchebaggery. Just because something is legal doesn't make it not-douchebaggery.

Turing_Machine 3y ago
Not even the Mafia is so unethical as to describe a predatory loan as a "bonus".
- leventonportera 3y ago
  ah yes, a predatory loan is a a loan where you pay no interest, have a chance to have it forgiven, and at worst just return the original amount almost 2 years later, gaining the inflation amount. so any bonus that is not just cash in your pocket is not a bonus? what is the correct word for a really good freebie that a company gives you? you know, a great minimum reward, a possible much bigger reward if you are one of the top performers, so you have an incentive to perform. Let's say you pay $5 for a lottery ticket, where you're guaranteed to win $5 but can win $100. Is it predatory and unethical to you if you don't win the $100?
  - weard_beard 3y ago
    There is a thing that we all by convention understand: additional compensation. It is frequently tied to performance. Once given and cleared into a bank account it cannot be taken back. We call this a bonus. A loan, which must be paid back might be called a squirrel on mars but here on earth we don’t call it a bonus. A “benefit”? Maybe. Health insurance may retroactively renege on their promised coverage. 401ks are frequently embezzled. When these things happen it’s usually a pitiful, or illegal act worthy of derision. Like a predatory loan. You know what, I don’t think this is a benefit either. Let’s just call it a squirrel.
    - leventonportera 3y ago
      >There is a thing that we all by convention understand yes, and by we all you are including people who don't deal with sales bonuses, presales bonuses, or sign-on bonuses. the takeaway here is if you don't understand something, don't start talking like an expert and correcting people about it. what do you call the most common type of sign-on bonus - stock options that you lose if you don't work there for a couple of years? is that a "benefit?" Benefits come with the job. A one-time benefit based on some criteria is called a bonus. Yes, a chunk of cash is also a bonus. A Cash bonus. This was not a cash bonus. It was the most common type of sign-on bonus that exists - one that is only fully realized if you stay with the company for a certain time. And you're free to not take it. But you can't take it and complain it's somehow a scam. repeat after me - loans at 0% that you may even get forgiven after 2 years, are not predatory. they are The best loan you are able to ever get - the opposite of predatory. and someone giving you the ability to take this great type of loan, for the event of signing on, is giving you a bonus. Put that 100k in a 5% HSA for 2 years, give it back, and you just got 10k in cash. Predatory loan. You people will twist and turn reality just to double-down.
  - friend_and_foe 3y ago
    After reading this thread, you have got to be trying real hard to wash this in your head. They give people a massive chunk of money as a """bonus""" and then shitcan them right before the 2 year mark so they can get the money back, call it a loan in the paperwork to make this arrangement legally enforceable. You think this is an honest, perfectly reasonable arrangement? Do you hear yourself?
    - leventonportera 3y ago
      Yes, a company sign-on bonus being dependent on staying with the company for a set time, is not only a reasonable arrangement - it is the most common type of sign-on bonus. Any 2-year interest-free loan is a great loan, and you can turn that into about 10-20k just by putting it into a treasury bond or an HSA. Have you ever, in your life, received a sign-on bonus? They call it a loan, because it is a loan. Just like PPP was called a loan, and forgiven on a predefined condition. I hear myself fine. I hear myself observing some people who I believe have not had a professional job in sales or presales, never had a sign-on bonus, never received stock options, and are calling a great thing bad, and being outraged on behalf of some rich asshole playing victim. I hear myself laughing at some people who have no clue about the subject matter, but like to create fake anger and outrage online, so they could feel superior by painting "evil" all around them to avoid dealing with the actual reason for their own failings - themselves. Does that answer your question?
      - friend_and_foe 3y ago
        Yeah you are talking to a lot of people who are not salesmen by trade; this is an engineer heavy community. Many of the people here have received stock options, it's part of the status quo with regard to engineering compensation. They do it differently though, you get vested after a time and then you get your compensation. This bonus you're talking about, it isn't free money like you frame it, you're framing it simultaneously as "free money" and a loan so as to avoid addressing what is actually going on here. It's a way to get people with money problems stuck in servitude and willing to eat any shit you want them to just to avoid the debt they'll incur if they don't. And that's predatory, but that's not the end of it. They then get laid off and still owe the money back. I'm not surprised you're avoiding mentioning these facts about the case we are discussing.
leventonportera 3y ago
Yes, the interest-free loan with possibility of it becoming a grant is a bonus. At a job, a bonus is an extra benefit outside of base compensationn. But that's not what you're arguing here, is it. Since there is no actual argument you can make here, you're making up added details that make you right, then attacking those made up details. "but somewhere deep in the fine print" - there is Zero chance the bonus recipient had no idea that this loan is only forgiven is he keeps his employment. Zero. Companies give bonuses - more commonly as stock options - that can only be cashed in if you keep your employment for a certain length. Literally every C-corp does this. In fact, the bonus described here is more common than the "here's some cash, even if you're no longer working here tomorrow." "If the company touted "free food" - and again with the making stuff up. There was no free food. In your example, the company offered you $500 in cash to use as you please, said you'll have to pay it back if you get fired within two years, and you said thanks and took the money. Then you got fired. Douchebaggery is making stuff up about a scenario because you have no actual argument in the scenario presented. Watch a lot of newsmax by chance?

Turing_Machine 3y ago

Not even the Mafia is so unethical as to describe a predatory loan as a "bonus".

leventonportera 3y ago
ah yes, a predatory loan is a a loan where you pay no interest, have a chance to have it forgiven, and at worst just return the original amount almost 2 years later, gaining the inflation amount. so any bonus that is not just cash in your pocket is not a bonus? what is the correct word for a really good freebie that a company gives you? you know, a great minimum reward, a possible much bigger reward if you are one of the top performers, so you have an incentive to perform. Let's say you pay $5 for a lottery ticket, where you're guaranteed to win $5 but can win $100. Is it predatory and unethical to you if you don't win the $100?
- weard_beard 3y ago
  There is a thing that we all by convention understand: additional compensation. It is frequently tied to performance. Once given and cleared into a bank account it cannot be taken back. We call this a bonus. A loan, which must be paid back might be called a squirrel on mars but here on earth we don’t call it a bonus. A “benefit”? Maybe. Health insurance may retroactively renege on their promised coverage. 401ks are frequently embezzled. When these things happen it’s usually a pitiful, or illegal act worthy of derision. Like a predatory loan. You know what, I don’t think this is a benefit either. Let’s just call it a squirrel.
  - leventonportera 3y ago
    >There is a thing that we all by convention understand yes, and by we all you are including people who don't deal with sales bonuses, presales bonuses, or sign-on bonuses. the takeaway here is if you don't understand something, don't start talking like an expert and correcting people about it. what do you call the most common type of sign-on bonus - stock options that you lose if you don't work there for a couple of years? is that a "benefit?" Benefits come with the job. A one-time benefit based on some criteria is called a bonus. Yes, a chunk of cash is also a bonus. A Cash bonus. This was not a cash bonus. It was the most common type of sign-on bonus that exists - one that is only fully realized if you stay with the company for a certain time. And you're free to not take it. But you can't take it and complain it's somehow a scam. repeat after me - loans at 0% that you may even get forgiven after 2 years, are not predatory. they are The best loan you are able to ever get - the opposite of predatory. and someone giving you the ability to take this great type of loan, for the event of signing on, is giving you a bonus. Put that 100k in a 5% HSA for 2 years, give it back, and you just got 10k in cash. Predatory loan. You people will twist and turn reality just to double-down.
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  After reading this thread, you have got to be trying real hard to wash this in your head. They give people a massive chunk of money as a """bonus""" and then shitcan them right before the 2 year mark so they can get the money back, call it a loan in the paperwork to make this arrangement legally enforceable. You think this is an honest, perfectly reasonable arrangement? Do you hear yourself?
  - leventonportera 3y ago
    Yes, a company sign-on bonus being dependent on staying with the company for a set time, is not only a reasonable arrangement - it is the most common type of sign-on bonus. Any 2-year interest-free loan is a great loan, and you can turn that into about 10-20k just by putting it into a treasury bond or an HSA. Have you ever, in your life, received a sign-on bonus? They call it a loan, because it is a loan. Just like PPP was called a loan, and forgiven on a predefined condition. I hear myself fine. I hear myself observing some people who I believe have not had a professional job in sales or presales, never had a sign-on bonus, never received stock options, and are calling a great thing bad, and being outraged on behalf of some rich asshole playing victim. I hear myself laughing at some people who have no clue about the subject matter, but like to create fake anger and outrage online, so they could feel superior by painting "evil" all around them to avoid dealing with the actual reason for their own failings - themselves. Does that answer your question?
    - friend_and_foe 3y ago
      Yeah you are talking to a lot of people who are not salesmen by trade; this is an engineer heavy community. Many of the people here have received stock options, it's part of the status quo with regard to engineering compensation. They do it differently though, you get vested after a time and then you get your compensation. This bonus you're talking about, it isn't free money like you frame it, you're framing it simultaneously as "free money" and a loan so as to avoid addressing what is actually going on here. It's a way to get people with money problems stuck in servitude and willing to eat any shit you want them to just to avoid the debt they'll incur if they don't. And that's predatory, but that's not the end of it. They then get laid off and still owe the money back. I'm not surprised you're avoiding mentioning these facts about the case we are discussing.

leventonportera 3y ago

Yes, the interest-free loan with possibility of it becoming a grant is a bonus. At a job, a bonus is an extra benefit outside of base compensationn. But that's not what you're arguing here, is it. Since there is no actual argument you can make here, you're making up added details that make you right, then attacking those made up details. "but somewhere deep in the fine print" - there is Zero chance the bonus recipient had no idea that this loan is only forgiven is he keeps his employment. Zero. Companies give bonuses - more commonly as stock options - that can only be cashed in if you keep your employment for a certain length. Literally every C-corp does this. In fact, the bonus described here is more common than the "here's some cash, even if you're no longer working here tomorrow." "If the company touted "free food" - and again with the making stuff up. There was no free food. In your example, the company offered you $500 in cash to use as you please, said you'll have to pay it back if you get fired within two years, and you said thanks and took the money. Then you got fired. Douchebaggery is making stuff up about a scenario because you have no actual argument in the scenario presented. Watch a lot of newsmax by chance?