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TinyPilot founder here. I understand the feedback about the price. When I created the original TinyPilot,[0] I wanted a low-priced alternative to the $600 KVM

TinyPilot founder here. I understand the feedback about the price. When I created the original TinyPilot,[0] I wanted a low-priced alternative to the $600 KVM over IP options I was seeing, and now I sell my devices for $400-500/unit. The thing that's tough about selling hardware is that it seems easy to produce a few units cheaply, but creating a sustainable business for it, the costs add up. You have to fulfill orders, provide support when there are delivery issues, provide support when the customer has trouble understanding how to connect to a device on their local network. And there's certification, stockpiling components so you don't run out of stock, managing inventory from many different vendors. TinyPilot became profitable in 2023, but for the first 2.5 years, we were operating at a loss. [1] Also, small correction: no KVM over IP vendor is really selling open hardware. The part that's open is the software. I haven't seen any vendors publish their hardware schematics. It's expensive to create PCBs, and it's not like open-source software where you can hope to get useful external contributions. [0] https://tinypilotkvm.com/blog/build-a-kvm-over-ip-under-100 https://tinypilotkvm.com/blog/build-a-kvm-over-ip-under-100 [1] https://mtlynch.io/retrospectives/2023/10/#tinypilothttpstinypilotkvmcomrefmtlynchio-stats https://mtlynch.io/retrospectives/2023/10/#tinypilothttpstin...

wferrell 3y ago
Fan of your work, your blog and your openness. Thank you.
- mtlynch 3y ago
  Thanks! I appreciate you saying that.
SCUSKU 3y ago
I have been following the TinyPilot project on & off for a while, and I just wanted to say I appreciate your openness as well as your excellent attitude toward feedback. I think many of us (myself included) have been spoiled with various forms of free/open software and have come to expect things to be cheap or free. But of course github stars and positive reviews won't pay our bills. So it totally makes sense to charge what you are charging for your product. You deserve it, and you're clearly putting in hard and honest work. If and when I need a KVM I will 100% be reaching for a TinyPilot.
progbits 3y ago
Hey, thanks for commenting. I'm a big fan of your transparency and don't get me wrong, I like the product and the price is certainly better than the "enterprise" gear. But I personally don't care about support, the enclosure can be 3d printed or some cheap plastic box, if sold as DIY kit it would save assembly costs and avoid need for certification and so on. I think there is a small market for homelabers like myself who would pay maybe $100-150 for a simpler product. And congrats on being profitable.
- mtlynch 3y ago
  >But I personally don't care about support, the enclosure can be 3d printed or some cheap plastic box, if sold as DIY kit it would save assembly costs and avoid need for certification and so on. I think there is a small market for homelabers like myself who would pay maybe $100-150 for a simpler product. We used to sell both the pre-made units and a $190 DIY kit. Surprisingly, when I tried removing the DIY kits, sales jumped by 50%. And it wasn't just higher revenue because people were buying the more expensive product - order volume increased too.[0] My theory is that when we asked customers if they wanted to pay more for a pre-made version, some of them stopped to think about which version they wanted and then just never returned. So, when we simplified to just one product, it eliminated friction in the buying process. With the Pi 4 shortage the past few years, using our limited Pi 4 supply for DIY kits instead of our pre-made product would be a terrible move. We're expecting the shortage to be over in the next few months, but even if there was a way for me to sell an extra 50 units per month at a $50 profit, selling a second product line and managing it end-to-end is so complicated that it wouldn't be worth the extra $2.5k/month. And that $2.5k/month is before chargebacks, hiring people to assemble and fulfill the kits, etc. We do still work to serve DIY customers and make sure our software stays compatible with users who just use off-the-shelf parts. And we still sell a power splitter,[1] as it's the one thing you can't really buy off the shelf from other vendors. We're able to do that because they cost about $10/unit to make, so we can make a year's worth in a week and just ship them to our warehouse. But doing that with a whole kit would be way more costly. [0] https://mtlynch.io/retrospectives/2021/12/#reducing-to-a-single-product-nearly-doubled-sales https://mtlynch.io/retrospectives/2021/12/#reducing-to-a-sin... [1] https://tinypilotkvm.com/product/tinypilot-power-connector https://tinypilotkvm.com/product/tinypilot-power-connector
zeagle 3y ago
I'm very impressed with your write up and transparency. I hope the manufacturing issues are sorted out! I don't manufacture anything but I've read a 3x rule of sale price to raw input cost.
fensgrim 3y ago
> provide support when the customer has trouble understanding how to connect to a device on their local network. Is it possible to order current revision of TinyPilot for someone in a remote location and connect to it on arrival through some managed service - without going through all the hoops of helping end user with setting up some form of reverse shell (e.g. either meshcentral or openvpn/wireguard for webinterface)?
- mtlynch 3y ago
  No, unfortunately that's not something we offer. Customers could do that on their end, but they'd have to buy the device from us, configure it for remote access,[0] and then forward the device to the final destination. [0] https://tinypilotkvm.com/faq/cloud-access https://tinypilotkvm.com/faq/cloud-access
- mdevaev 3y ago
  PiKVM can do this. We have developed a cloud-like platform that is already being tested, and we plan to launch it before the new year's release. Technical details here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mdevaev/pikvm-v4/posts/3716006 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mdevaev/pikvm-v4/posts/... If you REALLY want to try it and you have PiKVM, you can contact us at Discord (https://discord.gg/bpmXfz5 https://discord.gg/bpmXfz5) and we will give you access to the beta version.
bzmrgonz 3y ago
Well said Mr. Founder. I think the best that can be wished for, would be the pi-hat/screws/case/etc plus a howto & code. perhaps you could explore the ce vs. pro version (ce being dated, less feature rich than pro. By getting your tech in the hands of thinkerers/homelab-builders, you will ensure once they get into the enterprise, they willa dvocate for paid products from you.

wferrell 3y ago

Fan of your work, your blog and your openness. Thank you.

mtlynch 3y ago
Thanks! I appreciate you saying that.

SCUSKU 3y ago

I have been following the TinyPilot project on & off for a while, and I just wanted to say I appreciate your openness as well as your excellent attitude toward feedback. I think many of us (myself included) have been spoiled with various forms of free/open software and have come to expect things to be cheap or free. But of course github stars and positive reviews won't pay our bills. So it totally makes sense to charge what you are charging for your product. You deserve it, and you're clearly putting in hard and honest work. If and when I need a KVM I will 100% be reaching for a TinyPilot.

progbits 3y ago

Hey, thanks for commenting. I'm a big fan of your transparency and don't get me wrong, I like the product and the price is certainly better than the "enterprise" gear. But I personally don't care about support, the enclosure can be 3d printed or some cheap plastic box, if sold as DIY kit it would save assembly costs and avoid need for certification and so on. I think there is a small market for homelabers like myself who would pay maybe $100-150 for a simpler product. And congrats on being profitable.

mtlynch 3y ago
>But I personally don't care about support, the enclosure can be 3d printed or some cheap plastic box, if sold as DIY kit it would save assembly costs and avoid need for certification and so on. I think there is a small market for homelabers like myself who would pay maybe $100-150 for a simpler product. We used to sell both the pre-made units and a $190 DIY kit. Surprisingly, when I tried removing the DIY kits, sales jumped by 50%. And it wasn't just higher revenue because people were buying the more expensive product - order volume increased too.[0] My theory is that when we asked customers if they wanted to pay more for a pre-made version, some of them stopped to think about which version they wanted and then just never returned. So, when we simplified to just one product, it eliminated friction in the buying process. With the Pi 4 shortage the past few years, using our limited Pi 4 supply for DIY kits instead of our pre-made product would be a terrible move. We're expecting the shortage to be over in the next few months, but even if there was a way for me to sell an extra 50 units per month at a $50 profit, selling a second product line and managing it end-to-end is so complicated that it wouldn't be worth the extra $2.5k/month. And that $2.5k/month is before chargebacks, hiring people to assemble and fulfill the kits, etc. We do still work to serve DIY customers and make sure our software stays compatible with users who just use off-the-shelf parts. And we still sell a power splitter,[1] as it's the one thing you can't really buy off the shelf from other vendors. We're able to do that because they cost about $10/unit to make, so we can make a year's worth in a week and just ship them to our warehouse. But doing that with a whole kit would be way more costly. [0] https://mtlynch.io/retrospectives/2021/12/#reducing-to-a-single-product-nearly-doubled-sales https://mtlynch.io/retrospectives/2021/12/#reducing-to-a-sin... [1] https://tinypilotkvm.com/product/tinypilot-power-connector https://tinypilotkvm.com/product/tinypilot-power-connector

zeagle 3y ago

I'm very impressed with your write up and transparency. I hope the manufacturing issues are sorted out! I don't manufacture anything but I've read a 3x rule of sale price to raw input cost.

fensgrim 3y ago

> provide support when the customer has trouble understanding how to connect to a device on their local network. Is it possible to order current revision of TinyPilot for someone in a remote location and connect to it on arrival through some managed service - without going through all the hoops of helping end user with setting up some form of reverse shell (e.g. either meshcentral or openvpn/wireguard for webinterface)?

mtlynch 3y ago
No, unfortunately that's not something we offer. Customers could do that on their end, but they'd have to buy the device from us, configure it for remote access,[0] and then forward the device to the final destination. [0] https://tinypilotkvm.com/faq/cloud-access https://tinypilotkvm.com/faq/cloud-access
mdevaev 3y ago
PiKVM can do this. We have developed a cloud-like platform that is already being tested, and we plan to launch it before the new year's release. Technical details here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mdevaev/pikvm-v4/posts/3716006 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mdevaev/pikvm-v4/posts/... If you REALLY want to try it and you have PiKVM, you can contact us at Discord (https://discord.gg/bpmXfz5 https://discord.gg/bpmXfz5) and we will give you access to the beta version.

bzmrgonz 3y ago

Well said Mr. Founder. I think the best that can be wished for, would be the pi-hat/screws/case/etc plus a howto & code. perhaps you could explore the ce vs. pro version (ce being dated, less feature rich than pro. By getting your tech in the hands of thinkerers/homelab-builders, you will ensure once they get into the enterprise, they willa dvocate for paid products from you.