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rofl, look at everything you commented on. You're basically making my point. Also it sounds like you never worked with a programmer before, because "that's lite

rofl, look at everything you commented on. You're basically making my point. Also it sounds like you never worked with a programmer before, because "that's literally the job of programmers, to figure out how to implement something" is by far vastly underestimating how good programmers are when you give them fuzzy information. Maybe by year 7 or 8 they can get fuzzy info and work that into a well functioning piece. Before then they either will complain "why can't someone just tell me what to build and I'll build it" or they never push back on "do we need to build this? And as such?" and by god try to get them to estimate. Oh wait and try to get those estimates to be less than 300% off. Just saying, you are over trivializing everything which in my mind leads me to think you haven't lead an engineering team or maybe oversaw one or two junior or mid level engineers. A good PM should _not_ be advocating for the engineers to do whatever. If they are doing this I would be the first in line to recommend either re-adjusting their priorities and having a senior pm oversee them, or kick them out. A good PM is what creates the space for engineers to do their job, and a bad one will not wrangle the chaos into an executable situation.

Nathanba 3y ago
You are talking from a fixed, assembly line perspective of having to deliver fixed value at fixed intervals. This is just not how I think of myself - as a cog in a machine. If you have to think of people this way because this is the only way your job functions in a huge corporation then do it but the ideal world doesn't work that way and therefore I don't want to work that way. I'm never going to be happy in a job where a PM isn't enabling me to do whatever I think is right for the product. Because just like you I happen to think that my ideas are good, so it would be a waste to just sit in a job like a soulless cog and work off an issue list every week with zero thought or input. Expecting people to be like this is probably why you get people like this.
- Justsignedup 3y ago
  I mean we are all cogs in a machine. And I found that a smart effective team who works in unison can develop novel things. Combined with a visionary who sits above the team pointing the brainpower into interesting directions you get quite interesting results. I think the power of teams is not in individual contribution, but when the team is significantly greater than the sum of its parts.

Nathanba 3y ago

You are talking from a fixed, assembly line perspective of having to deliver fixed value at fixed intervals. This is just not how I think of myself - as a cog in a machine. If you have to think of people this way because this is the only way your job functions in a huge corporation then do it but the ideal world doesn't work that way and therefore I don't want to work that way. I'm never going to be happy in a job where a PM isn't enabling me to do whatever I think is right for the product. Because just like you I happen to think that my ideas are good, so it would be a waste to just sit in a job like a soulless cog and work off an issue list every week with zero thought or input. Expecting people to be like this is probably why you get people like this.

Justsignedup 3y ago
I mean we are all cogs in a machine. And I found that a smart effective team who works in unison can develop novel things. Combined with a visionary who sits above the team pointing the brainpower into interesting directions you get quite interesting results. I think the power of teams is not in individual contribution, but when the team is significantly greater than the sum of its parts.