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> Israel's PR sucks and it's not that powerful. Public opinion changes on a dime. Not really. It's pretty rabidly pro genocide and pro Israel in my country. I

by megous 3y ago

> Israel's PR sucks and it's not that powerful. Public opinion changes on a dime. Not really. It's pretty rabidly pro genocide and pro Israel in my country. I don't know what would have to happen for this to change. Minister of defense even suggested leaving UN after the last UN GA vote. > I'm not denying there was violence against Arabs by Jews. I'm not denying there's settler harassment and land grabs. That does not justify the violence from the Arab side. So the violence of one side doesn't justify the violence on the other side? Then we agree. > The morality of building a settlement on occupied territory (from Jordan) is not equivalent to the morality of shooting a baby in the head in front of their parents. That's just some cherry-picked example. I can just as well tell you that shooting children into knees or heads over the fence is not equivalent to throwing some rocks, etc. This random cherry picking will lead nowhere. Anyway, this is just a mirror argument to the one above. Either rights apply to both side, or to none of them. Current example of a war crimes would be usage of starvation of civilian population as a means of warfare. Or attacking hospitals - eg. current attack on Al-Quds hospital https://twitter.com/PalestineRCS/status/1718660055883514087 https://twitter.com/PalestineRCS/status/1718660055883514087 making it barely inhabitable, and endangering patients there, just because Israel wants the people there to leave.

YZF 3y ago
I'm curious what country you're from and what's your connection to the conflict if any. For what it's worth I live in Canada (you might call me a refugee from this conflict which isn't far from the truth) and I have family in that region. I agree random cherry picking leads nowhere. Violence on one side doesn't justify the violence on the other is a bit of a tricky statement. Sometimes violence is justified so context matters. What Hamas did on Oct 7th is never justified. There are possibly (EDIT: actually likely) some examples of Israeli violence that is also unjustified. Rocks kill by the way. What would be your proposal of how Israel should respond to Hamas's attack? If such an attack was conducted on your community, how do you think your country would/should respond? Under international law hospitals cease to be protected if they are used by enemy combatants and if ample warning is given (which Israel has definitely given, the combatant use I'm not sure). The population of Gaza is also not starving. If Israel were to attack hospitals that are not involved or used in any way by enemy combatants or if the population of Gaza indeed ends up starving then those would be war crimes. There is still food in Gaza. I've heard there is agreement to increase the amount of aid flowing into Gaza significantly. At the same time Israel isn't responsible for feeding Hamas fighters or for how Hamas distribute their provisions in Gaza or does not. I don't think Israel benefits from violating international law (many other countries don't even blink at doing that, but that's beside the point) and should not. I also disagree that either rights apply to both sides or apply to none. Right always apply to both sides. I find everything going on right now very deeply disturbing on many levels. Whenever there's any glimmer of hope that something better can happen in the middle east there's always some player that's going to literally blow everything up. I do think the truth matters (vs. the untruthful narratives from almost everyone) as there's no path forward on top of lies. Too many people are just brainwashed. So yes, the truthful events of 1948 (mostly discussed by Israeli historians that Palestinians are happy to quote) are important but so is the Jewish history of the region in modern and ancient times. EDIT: btw I watched the images on that Twitter video. There is war going on outside and so yes- there is very likely some impact on the hospital. At least the video itself seems to show that it's not a place I'd want to be but also people are still alive and uninjured there.
- megous 3y ago
  International law is complicated. It allows comingling of combatants and health care workers if the combatants are not engaging in hostilities, but are just assisting the workers. There's also issue of proportionality. You can't bomb hospital with 10000 people if you see 10 people with guns there. You'd still be required to attempt to target combatants and avoid civilian harm. I'd leave it to the lawyers. I'm in Czechia, a country that supports Israel unconditionally, without an ounce of sympathy for Palestinians. Vast majority of comments on news articles that allow commenting just call for genocide, for leveling the place, justify killing children, call Gazan's not human, express excitement when they are being killed, etc. (yes we have laws against genocide and incitement to genocide) Politicians are not much better, except they're just acting out callous disregard for human beings on the "other side". Media is not showing or describing the human toll in Gaza pretty much at all. A country that sold a lot of planes and weapons to Israel in 47/48 during the arms embargo. You can show people videos like these, and they'd still tell you it's Palestinian's own fault, and they'd still vote even against an unenforcible, largely symbolic resolution calling for a meaningful ceasefire and distribution of aid, so that there's at least an anesthetic, and safe route to get these patients transfered outside of Gaza. https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17jfd8o/warning_very_graphici_cant_imagine_the_pain_she/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17jfd8o/warning_... https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17jeq4r/kids_injured_in_after_bombing_their_house/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17jeq4r/kids_inj... https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17c269h/saving_a_girl_who_almost_suffocated_after_being/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17c269h/saving_a... https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17c9igd/israel_has_a_right_to_defend_itself_by/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17c9igd/israel_h... Or who can scroll a few weeks back through this this https://t.me/s/eyeonpal https://t.me/s/eyeonpal and think that killing, maiming and terrorizing these people in such horrendous ways, and continuing to opress them after the war, will not make them susceptible to even more radical views than what Hamas have now in the future. Or the news like: "Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich says he ordered a halt to transfer of funds to the Palestinian Authority as a result of, what he says, their “support” for Hamas’s October 7 attack. “I would like to inform you that I have instructed the Finance Ministry to stop the transfer of payments this month,” Smotrich said in a letter to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted by the Israeli media." a day after warnings about "explosive situation in West Bank" from security services. It all almost seems designed to trigger as much mayhem as possible, just to guarantee some uprising there. Defunding PA will not make it stronger. It's guaranteed to make it look impotent and useless in people's eyes and make them turn elsewhere. Anyway, I cope by reading books and learning, so I can confront the ignorance in my country. > If such an attack was conducted on your community, how do you think your country would/should respond? My country was occupied twice. It didn't fight back, and just accepted the fate. (aside from people joining foreign legion or partisans, during WW2)

by megous 3y ago

YZF 3y ago

I'm curious what country you're from and what's your connection to the conflict if any. For what it's worth I live in Canada (you might call me a refugee from this conflict which isn't far from the truth) and I have family in that region. I agree random cherry picking leads nowhere. Violence on one side doesn't justify the violence on the other is a bit of a tricky statement. Sometimes violence is justified so context matters. What Hamas did on Oct 7th is never justified. There are possibly (EDIT: actually likely) some examples of Israeli violence that is also unjustified. Rocks kill by the way. What would be your proposal of how Israel should respond to Hamas's attack? If such an attack was conducted on your community, how do you think your country would/should respond? Under international law hospitals cease to be protected if they are used by enemy combatants and if ample warning is given (which Israel has definitely given, the combatant use I'm not sure). The population of Gaza is also not starving. If Israel were to attack hospitals that are not involved or used in any way by enemy combatants or if the population of Gaza indeed ends up starving then those would be war crimes. There is still food in Gaza. I've heard there is agreement to increase the amount of aid flowing into Gaza significantly. At the same time Israel isn't responsible for feeding Hamas fighters or for how Hamas distribute their provisions in Gaza or does not. I don't think Israel benefits from violating international law (many other countries don't even blink at doing that, but that's beside the point) and should not. I also disagree that either rights apply to both sides or apply to none. Right always apply to both sides. I find everything going on right now very deeply disturbing on many levels. Whenever there's any glimmer of hope that something better can happen in the middle east there's always some player that's going to literally blow everything up. I do think the truth matters (vs. the untruthful narratives from almost everyone) as there's no path forward on top of lies. Too many people are just brainwashed. So yes, the truthful events of 1948 (mostly discussed by Israeli historians that Palestinians are happy to quote) are important but so is the Jewish history of the region in modern and ancient times. EDIT: btw I watched the images on that Twitter video. There is war going on outside and so yes- there is very likely some impact on the hospital. At least the video itself seems to show that it's not a place I'd want to be but also people are still alive and uninjured there.

megous 3y ago
International law is complicated. It allows comingling of combatants and health care workers if the combatants are not engaging in hostilities, but are just assisting the workers. There's also issue of proportionality. You can't bomb hospital with 10000 people if you see 10 people with guns there. You'd still be required to attempt to target combatants and avoid civilian harm. I'd leave it to the lawyers. I'm in Czechia, a country that supports Israel unconditionally, without an ounce of sympathy for Palestinians. Vast majority of comments on news articles that allow commenting just call for genocide, for leveling the place, justify killing children, call Gazan's not human, express excitement when they are being killed, etc. (yes we have laws against genocide and incitement to genocide) Politicians are not much better, except they're just acting out callous disregard for human beings on the "other side". Media is not showing or describing the human toll in Gaza pretty much at all. A country that sold a lot of planes and weapons to Israel in 47/48 during the arms embargo. You can show people videos like these, and they'd still tell you it's Palestinian's own fault, and they'd still vote even against an unenforcible, largely symbolic resolution calling for a meaningful ceasefire and distribution of aid, so that there's at least an anesthetic, and safe route to get these patients transfered outside of Gaza. https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17jfd8o/warning_very_graphici_cant_imagine_the_pain_she/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17jfd8o/warning_... https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17jeq4r/kids_injured_in_after_bombing_their_house/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17jeq4r/kids_inj... https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17c269h/saving_a_girl_who_almost_suffocated_after_being/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17c269h/saving_a... https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17c9igd/israel_has_a_right_to_defend_itself_by/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17c9igd/israel_h... Or who can scroll a few weeks back through this this https://t.me/s/eyeonpal https://t.me/s/eyeonpal and think that killing, maiming and terrorizing these people in such horrendous ways, and continuing to opress them after the war, will not make them susceptible to even more radical views than what Hamas have now in the future. Or the news like: "Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich says he ordered a halt to transfer of funds to the Palestinian Authority as a result of, what he says, their “support” for Hamas’s October 7 attack. “I would like to inform you that I have instructed the Finance Ministry to stop the transfer of payments this month,” Smotrich said in a letter to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted by the Israeli media." a day after warnings about "explosive situation in West Bank" from security services. It all almost seems designed to trigger as much mayhem as possible, just to guarantee some uprising there. Defunding PA will not make it stronger. It's guaranteed to make it look impotent and useless in people's eyes and make them turn elsewhere. Anyway, I cope by reading books and learning, so I can confront the ignorance in my country. > If such an attack was conducted on your community, how do you think your country would/should respond? My country was occupied twice. It didn't fight back, and just accepted the fate. (aside from people joining foreign legion or partisans, during WW2)