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yeah +1, I used to wear the product manager hat in an engineering role, while working with bad product managers, and so I thought the role was a grift at best.

yeah +1, I used to wear the product manager hat in an engineering role, while working with bad product managers, and so I thought the role was a grift at best. Also dealing with a herd of b2b clients sucked while trying to focus on doing the things we argued about / committed to doing. Then a good PM got hired, he actually understands what's going on / makes the effort to learn, and the life of "Engineering" roles got so much better. It may be significant in this case that product works with engineering in a kind of liason role and doesn't "dictate" much. Now program managers, it remains to be seen where their value comes from and I hope it does

lostdog 3y ago
Yeah, the problem is that accountability for PMs is usually missing. No one checks whether the PM is adding or removing effectiveness, so the good PMs go unrecognized and the bad ones keep siphoning energy from the project. Second, bad PMs just create unnecessary work for everyone around them. Everyone believes they just have to do what the PM says, and then suddenly you have a whole eng team contributing nothing.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  I've legit seen PM's just move their own deadlines. Their decision, no attempt at justification, and I've seen it put everyone behind because they're waiting on the PM. I've legit seen a PM deliver a set of requirements 3 days before a deadline and blame the technical team for non-delivery (multiple times!). It sounds so ridiculous, and yet ... it happened.
ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
> Now program managers, it remains to be seen where their value comes from and I hope it does in my experience, they manage project managers for systems with a high degree of complexity, e.g. an aircraft, and the product managers work through them, instead of through project managers directly. Or they are themselves the product manager, just with different terminology depending on the industry

lostdog 3y ago

Yeah, the problem is that accountability for PMs is usually missing. No one checks whether the PM is adding or removing effectiveness, so the good PMs go unrecognized and the bad ones keep siphoning energy from the project. Second, bad PMs just create unnecessary work for everyone around them. Everyone believes they just have to do what the PM says, and then suddenly you have a whole eng team contributing nothing.

PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
I've legit seen PM's just move their own deadlines. Their decision, no attempt at justification, and I've seen it put everyone behind because they're waiting on the PM. I've legit seen a PM deliver a set of requirements 3 days before a deadline and blame the technical team for non-delivery (multiple times!). It sounds so ridiculous, and yet ... it happened.

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago

> Now program managers, it remains to be seen where their value comes from and I hope it does in my experience, they manage project managers for systems with a high degree of complexity, e.g. an aircraft, and the product managers work through them, instead of through project managers directly. Or they are themselves the product manager, just with different terminology depending on the industry