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> Pay in now, (and keep him around) Wow there’s so much to unpack here. We live in a world that is largely heterosexual and monogamous, meaning it takes two to

> Pay in now, (and keep him around) Wow there’s so much to unpack here. We live in a world that is largely heterosexual and monogamous, meaning it takes two to tango. If there’s a bunch of women ending up single, then that necessitates about an equal amount of single men too. The “bitterness” will be bourne by both fronts equally, and the “hot and marketable” comment cuts both ways. Rather than play the blame game and make gross uber analogies, It’s worth pointing out why some people would rather be single. Is it because they’d rather not be in unhappy marriages? If so, the focus should be on how to improve marriage for both parties. Is it because on top of needing to have a career, they’re also expected to shoulder much of the burden of raising kids? Let’s think of how we can make it more fair to everyone, or work on supporting parenthood as a society.

fakedang 3y ago
> Wow there’s so much to unpack here. We live in a world that is largely heterosexual and monogamous, meaning it takes two to tango. Is it really? The world may be largely monogamous and heterosexual, but is that the case for Westernized societies? I remember reading stats on how native Western EU cultures rank highest in terms of infidelity and divorce rates, with Luxembourg enjoying a massive 40% divorce rate. The world may be monogamous, but I doubt that's only because repressive Old World societies are propping it up. Costs became unmanageable and out of reach for the average folks once women entered the workforce, essentially doubling the supply of labor overnight. This could have been balanced out with men not being looked down upon for staying at home with the kids (although that raises more questions, considering men weren't really biologically wired for the task). There's a reason most rich families have mostly stay-at-home wives/moms even today. The man earns the dough, while the woman stays home or works a very chill job, while her primary focus remains the house and the family (including its finances, social standing, kids - which tends to be a very high amount btw, etc). And in my experience, the ones that aren't structured this way tend to fall apart quickly.
- Tijdreiziger 3y ago
  > I remember reading stats on how native Western EU cultures rank highest in terms of infidelity and divorce rates, with Luxembourg enjoying a massive 40% divorce rate. The entire country of Luxembourg has a smaller population than most big cities, with only slightly more than half of that population having the Luxembourgish nationality. It’s hardly representative for “native Western EU cultures”.
  - fakedang 3y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_demography https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_demography It seems Portugal and Spain rank at the top for divorces (80%+!), followed by Luxembourg, then Russia and Ukraine. The EU average is 45%,just like the US average.
- lazide 3y ago
  ‘Crossing the streams’ with social roles is also an issue of insecurity. Which we can all point fingers at people and say ‘should’ or ‘shouldn’t’, but people don’t work that way. I’ve personally seen women get really distressed when they see an actual good male parent (better than them, it appeared) with kids. And I’ve seen the same with men (to the point of aggressive harassment) with a women who were better than them at ‘manly’ stuff, like welding/fabricating, or car repair. All of them denied it, but for anyone paying even a little attention it was pretty blatant.
- lazide 3y ago
  As a side note - it may be worth reframing ‘the world being largely monogamous and heterosexual’ to something more like ‘societies strongly enforcing monogamy and heterosexuality’. Anyone who has ever spent any time in a gay club can report that many/most of the other patrons were heterosexual/monogamous too. At least until they entered the club. Society doesn’t exist for long without a supply of children, and has very strong incentives to enforce certain behaviors.
lazide 3y ago
These factors all interrelate, as does interpersonal expectations, societal roles, etc. What you’re pointing out, IMO, is that expectations and roles aren’t realistic. People keep stepping on each others toes, fighting to justify themselves, burning out, etc. But then, there have always been the ‘confirmed bachelors’ and ‘old maids’ no? It would be interesting to see the percentages over time however. One thing that is easily confirmed by data and just by looking around - older, established men have no shortage of ‘market value’, as do young pretty women. Also, there has never been a time where raising kids or stable long term relationships was easy, or when there was no abuse somewhere.
- ProfessorLayton 3y ago
  Without gender misbalance and polyamory you can’t assign a higher “market value” to either, as an older single woman will also have a single male counterpart. What you’re seeing is confirmation bias.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Nope, many women often have multiple men (and vice versa!), and prostitution is very much a thing. It’s actually remarkably easy to measure ‘market value’ in these situations.
    - ProfessorLayton 3y ago
      One can have several sexual partners and still be very much single, so we’re not taking about the same ‘market’.
      - lazide 3y ago
        One can have several sexual partners and still be non single too. It’s remarkably common, actually, among both sexes. What market are you referring to that you think I’m not?
        3y ago
mcpackieh 3y ago
> If there’s a bunch of women ending up single, then that necessitates about an equal amount of single men too. A minority of those single men have numerous (sometimes >hundreds) short-term relationships. But far more of those single men have very few or even no relationships at all. I think this disparity is far more extreme for men than for women. If that upper echelon of single and promiscuous men were socially pressured to stop man-whoring and settle into healthy long-term relationships, then the rest would have better odds. Of course those men will never voluntarily change their ways unless there exists a strong social pressure to change. In the past, this pressure existed in the form of men without partners [wives, but it doesn't have to be wives] being viewed with suspicion if they wanted to attain social standing at work or in their community. This pressure has all-but evaporated into nothingness.
- lazide 3y ago
  And of course, people lie all the time too. There are a great many men (and women) that do things they would never, ever admit to. Regularly. I never cheated, but I was very shocked at how much attention I got as a married man. Take the ring off? Complete 180. It’s also pretty easy to look at the reported partner counts between the sexes and see that it’s literally impossible that both are true at the same time.

fakedang 3y ago

> Wow there’s so much to unpack here. We live in a world that is largely heterosexual and monogamous, meaning it takes two to tango. Is it really? The world may be largely monogamous and heterosexual, but is that the case for Westernized societies? I remember reading stats on how native Western EU cultures rank highest in terms of infidelity and divorce rates, with Luxembourg enjoying a massive 40% divorce rate. The world may be monogamous, but I doubt that's only because repressive Old World societies are propping it up. Costs became unmanageable and out of reach for the average folks once women entered the workforce, essentially doubling the supply of labor overnight. This could have been balanced out with men not being looked down upon for staying at home with the kids (although that raises more questions, considering men weren't really biologically wired for the task). There's a reason most rich families have mostly stay-at-home wives/moms even today. The man earns the dough, while the woman stays home or works a very chill job, while her primary focus remains the house and the family (including its finances, social standing, kids - which tends to be a very high amount btw, etc). And in my experience, the ones that aren't structured this way tend to fall apart quickly.

Tijdreiziger 3y ago
> I remember reading stats on how native Western EU cultures rank highest in terms of infidelity and divorce rates, with Luxembourg enjoying a massive 40% divorce rate. The entire country of Luxembourg has a smaller population than most big cities, with only slightly more than half of that population having the Luxembourgish nationality. It’s hardly representative for “native Western EU cultures”.
- fakedang 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_demography https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_demography It seems Portugal and Spain rank at the top for divorces (80%+!), followed by Luxembourg, then Russia and Ukraine. The EU average is 45%,just like the US average.
lazide 3y ago
‘Crossing the streams’ with social roles is also an issue of insecurity. Which we can all point fingers at people and say ‘should’ or ‘shouldn’t’, but people don’t work that way. I’ve personally seen women get really distressed when they see an actual good male parent (better than them, it appeared) with kids. And I’ve seen the same with men (to the point of aggressive harassment) with a women who were better than them at ‘manly’ stuff, like welding/fabricating, or car repair. All of them denied it, but for anyone paying even a little attention it was pretty blatant.
lazide 3y ago
As a side note - it may be worth reframing ‘the world being largely monogamous and heterosexual’ to something more like ‘societies strongly enforcing monogamy and heterosexuality’. Anyone who has ever spent any time in a gay club can report that many/most of the other patrons were heterosexual/monogamous too. At least until they entered the club. Society doesn’t exist for long without a supply of children, and has very strong incentives to enforce certain behaviors.

lazide 3y ago

These factors all interrelate, as does interpersonal expectations, societal roles, etc. What you’re pointing out, IMO, is that expectations and roles aren’t realistic. People keep stepping on each others toes, fighting to justify themselves, burning out, etc. But then, there have always been the ‘confirmed bachelors’ and ‘old maids’ no? It would be interesting to see the percentages over time however. One thing that is easily confirmed by data and just by looking around - older, established men have no shortage of ‘market value’, as do young pretty women. Also, there has never been a time where raising kids or stable long term relationships was easy, or when there was no abuse somewhere.

ProfessorLayton 3y ago
Without gender misbalance and polyamory you can’t assign a higher “market value” to either, as an older single woman will also have a single male counterpart. What you’re seeing is confirmation bias.
- lazide 3y ago
  Nope, many women often have multiple men (and vice versa!), and prostitution is very much a thing. It’s actually remarkably easy to measure ‘market value’ in these situations.
  - ProfessorLayton 3y ago
    One can have several sexual partners and still be very much single, so we’re not taking about the same ‘market’.
    - lazide 3y ago
      One can have several sexual partners and still be non single too. It’s remarkably common, actually, among both sexes. What market are you referring to that you think I’m not?
      - 3y ago

mcpackieh 3y ago

> If there’s a bunch of women ending up single, then that necessitates about an equal amount of single men too. A minority of those single men have numerous (sometimes >hundreds) short-term relationships. But far more of those single men have very few or even no relationships at all. I think this disparity is far more extreme for men than for women. If that upper echelon of single and promiscuous men were socially pressured to stop man-whoring and settle into healthy long-term relationships, then the rest would have better odds. Of course those men will never voluntarily change their ways unless there exists a strong social pressure to change. In the past, this pressure existed in the form of men without partners [wives, but it doesn't have to be wives] being viewed with suspicion if they wanted to attain social standing at work or in their community. This pressure has all-but evaporated into nothingness.

lazide 3y ago
And of course, people lie all the time too. There are a great many men (and women) that do things they would never, ever admit to. Regularly. I never cheated, but I was very shocked at how much attention I got as a married man. Take the ring off? Complete 180. It’s also pretty easy to look at the reported partner counts between the sexes and see that it’s literally impossible that both are true at the same time.