3 ms·

Er... Money has existed for thousands of years, and has replaced barter in any society with even moderate amounts of specialization, and a population size that

Er... Money has existed for thousands of years, and has replaced barter in any society with even moderate amounts of specialization, and a population size that gets into the thousands. In Roman times, this was already the case for thousands of years. Money is one of the great enablers of trade and specialization, of empire building. Barter economy cannot sustain any of that, because barter economy does not scale. Money is a relatively recent invention in the time scale of our species existence, but that's still 3-4 thousand years of near-ubiquitous use, minimum.

cyberax 3y ago
The Roman Empire was basically modern. It had currency, banks, loans with interest, etc. At the same time, the Slavic countries up north still were pre-monetary. There was little to no currency, but there was extensive trade in fur, salt, and other goods.
eesmith 3y ago
Was there money in pre-1778 Hawaii? Not that I have been able to figure out. I believe it was a gift economy. There certainly was specialization in Hawaii, and with a population of over 100,000 would seem like a good counter-example. > Barter economy cannot sustain any of that, because barter economy does not scale. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money , "There is no evidence, historical or contemporary, of a society in which barter is the main mode of exchange;[23] instead, non-monetary societies operated largely along the principles of gift economy and debt." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-monetary_economy#Other_moneyless_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-monetary_economy#Other_mon... list other money-less systems including "the Incas and possibly, also the empire of Majapahit". Both were empires.
- 0xbadcafebee 3y ago
  Hawai'ians had a number of skilled trades, and a caste system where a working class served a ruling class. Taxes were levied by the higher classes, and were paid in an amount based on the unit of land that was worked via subsistence farming. Those taxes were paid in the form of material goods (textiles, livestock, agriculture, etc). The material goods were the medium of exchange used to pay back a debt. Therefore, Hawai'i did have money, in the form of commodity money (objects having intrinsic value in addition to value as a method of payment), which is distinct from barter in that there are specific recognizable units of exchange (specific amounts of commodity money used to pay a specific amount of debt). Material goods were also used as money for trade between islands. [1] https://evols.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/8ba72f47-47d6-4c91-8414-c3c8634fc8f0/content https://evols.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/server/api/core/bitst... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahupua%CA%BBa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahupua%CA%BBa [3] https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/kona/history1g.htm https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/kona/history1g.... [4] https://web.archive.org/web/20140605052446/http://www.hawaiihistory.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=ig.page&CategoryID=299 https://web.archive.org/web/20140605052446/http://www.hawaii...
  - eesmith 3y ago
    When you say "taxes", I worry that your are imposing your view on the system. Your [1] starts "The concept of private property was unknown to ancient Hawaiians" and says: > Many Native Hawaiian scholars today make a distinction between the annual exchange before and after written tax law. Ho‘okupu, the term used for the exchange before written tax law, is similar to ‘auhau, the term used after written tax law was instituted. Both refer to the requirement to provide labor or a portion of an individual’s labor production to a governmental agent, but as noted earlier, ho’okupu literally means “to cause to grow.” > Some Native Hawaiian scholars believe that ho‘o kupu and tax are antithetical ideas, because, they argue, ho‘okupu was generated by the person who gives, while taxes were demanded from the person or group that receives. Your [3] points out "Actually because the chief upon whose lands they lived owned all the land and resources in an ahupua'a, in a sense the tenants were only giving these resources to the rightful owner, in a useful form and upon demand, on a gift-tax basis." If you own everything, how do you tax it? If you own no private property, what does it mean to tax it? Animals exchange goods - does that make it a monetary system? Eg, "Reciprocal Trading of Different Commodities in Norway Rats" at https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(18)30003-4.pdf https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(18)30003... . Why does Wikipedia list non-monetary cultures?
    - 0xbadcafebee 3y ago
      Every article I found on the history of the practice stated they were taxes. They were called "tributes" at the time, but the practice of landed gentry getting payment in exchange for protecting (or not hurting) you is a form of tax, regardless of whether you're doing it willingly or not. Even paying tribute to the gods is a form of tax, because people are afraid that if they don't pay tribute, the gods will be angered and destroy their crops. Tax is really just materials the powerful use to rule or control. Property ownership is not inherent to taxation, there are many forms of tax. There's no reason animals can't have a monetary system. We are animals after all, even if some people like to pretend we're not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_among_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_among_animals
      - 3y ago
Wytwwww 3y ago
> for thousands of years It depends on how you define money. Coins didn't really exist until the 7th century BC, that doesn't mean long-range widescale trade did not exist prior to that for 1000+ years but they didn't generally use money (in the way we would understand it at least) so the boundary between using money and barter wasn't really that clear.

cyberax 3y ago

The Roman Empire was basically modern. It had currency, banks, loans with interest, etc. At the same time, the Slavic countries up north still were pre-monetary. There was little to no currency, but there was extensive trade in fur, salt, and other goods.

eesmith 3y ago

Was there money in pre-1778 Hawaii? Not that I have been able to figure out. I believe it was a gift economy. There certainly was specialization in Hawaii, and with a population of over 100,000 would seem like a good counter-example. > Barter economy cannot sustain any of that, because barter economy does not scale. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money , "There is no evidence, historical or contemporary, of a society in which barter is the main mode of exchange;[23] instead, non-monetary societies operated largely along the principles of gift economy and debt." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-monetary_economy#Other_moneyless_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-monetary_economy#Other_mon... list other money-less systems including "the Incas and possibly, also the empire of Majapahit". Both were empires.

0xbadcafebee 3y ago
Hawai'ians had a number of skilled trades, and a caste system where a working class served a ruling class. Taxes were levied by the higher classes, and were paid in an amount based on the unit of land that was worked via subsistence farming. Those taxes were paid in the form of material goods (textiles, livestock, agriculture, etc). The material goods were the medium of exchange used to pay back a debt. Therefore, Hawai'i did have money, in the form of commodity money (objects having intrinsic value in addition to value as a method of payment), which is distinct from barter in that there are specific recognizable units of exchange (specific amounts of commodity money used to pay a specific amount of debt). Material goods were also used as money for trade between islands. [1] https://evols.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/8ba72f47-47d6-4c91-8414-c3c8634fc8f0/content https://evols.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/server/api/core/bitst... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahupua%CA%BBa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahupua%CA%BBa [3] https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/kona/history1g.htm https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/kona/history1g.... [4] https://web.archive.org/web/20140605052446/http://www.hawaiihistory.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=ig.page&CategoryID=299 https://web.archive.org/web/20140605052446/http://www.hawaii...
- eesmith 3y ago
  When you say "taxes", I worry that your are imposing your view on the system. Your [1] starts "The concept of private property was unknown to ancient Hawaiians" and says: > Many Native Hawaiian scholars today make a distinction between the annual exchange before and after written tax law. Ho‘okupu, the term used for the exchange before written tax law, is similar to ‘auhau, the term used after written tax law was instituted. Both refer to the requirement to provide labor or a portion of an individual’s labor production to a governmental agent, but as noted earlier, ho’okupu literally means “to cause to grow.” > Some Native Hawaiian scholars believe that ho‘o kupu and tax are antithetical ideas, because, they argue, ho‘okupu was generated by the person who gives, while taxes were demanded from the person or group that receives. Your [3] points out "Actually because the chief upon whose lands they lived owned all the land and resources in an ahupua'a, in a sense the tenants were only giving these resources to the rightful owner, in a useful form and upon demand, on a gift-tax basis." If you own everything, how do you tax it? If you own no private property, what does it mean to tax it? Animals exchange goods - does that make it a monetary system? Eg, "Reciprocal Trading of Different Commodities in Norway Rats" at https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(18)30003-4.pdf https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(18)30003... . Why does Wikipedia list non-monetary cultures?
  - 0xbadcafebee 3y ago
    Every article I found on the history of the practice stated they were taxes. They were called "tributes" at the time, but the practice of landed gentry getting payment in exchange for protecting (or not hurting) you is a form of tax, regardless of whether you're doing it willingly or not. Even paying tribute to the gods is a form of tax, because people are afraid that if they don't pay tribute, the gods will be angered and destroy their crops. Tax is really just materials the powerful use to rule or control. Property ownership is not inherent to taxation, there are many forms of tax. There's no reason animals can't have a monetary system. We are animals after all, even if some people like to pretend we're not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_among_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_among_animals
    - 3y ago

Wytwwww 3y ago

> for thousands of years It depends on how you define money. Coins didn't really exist until the 7th century BC, that doesn't mean long-range widescale trade did not exist prior to that for 1000+ years but they didn't generally use money (in the way we would understand it at least) so the boundary between using money and barter wasn't really that clear.