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capitalism, as a system defined by profit-driven markets and private ownership, is a relatively modern concept and not the default economic state throughout hum

capitalism, as a system defined by profit-driven markets and private ownership, is a relatively modern concept and not the default economic state throughout human history. earlier societies often operated on principles of reciprocity and communal sharing rather than for-profit trade. while the inclination to trade can be considered inherent, the forms and rules of trade have varied greatly across cultures and eras, shaped by differing social and political contexts.

WalterBright 3y ago
> is a relatively modern concept and not the default economic state throughout human history This is speculation. > earlier societies often operated on principles of reciprocity and communal sharing rather than for-profit trade. Any society that had specialization of labor did more than that. Heck, the American Indian tribes measured their individual wealth via horse ownership. They certainly engaged in trade with the intent of profit.
- nextaccountic 3y ago
  horse ownership? that was after european contact, right?
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    Yes. The first thing that happened with european contact was trade. I don't believe they were unfamiliar with it.
- weatherlight 3y ago
  That’s not speculation. Capitalism is more that just trading for profit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
  - monero-xmr 3y ago
    Capitalism is about accumulating resources privately, and then using those accumulated resources to invest in earning more resources. If you believe that early man was capable of thinking, "This shit is my shit, that shit is your shit, and if you take my shit I will punish you", then you have the precursors for capitalism. Academics like to throw a bunch of other nonsense around but that's it.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    From your link: "Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit."
    - weatherlight 3y ago
      exactly, "private ownership of the means of production...." that's an important distinction. It also says, "Central characteristics of capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive markets, price systems, private property, property rights recognition, voluntary exchange, and wage labor." Literally the next sentence. I'd rather not argue the very well understood definition of Capitalism. You can't have wage labor unless you have money as a construct.
      - monero-xmr 3y ago
        They paid people in ancient times. They knew what a typical day's wage was in Athens: > Also during Pericles' tenure, pay for civic service was instituted. No single other reform furthered democracy as much as pay for service. Now many more people could afford to serve, and for some, serving became attractive financially. First, dicasts, or jurors, began to be paid. A low rate, but half a day's wages or so. That was introduced by Pericles while Cimon was still around, perhaps to counteract his liberality with his own wealth. Jurors were appointed by lot annually and could serve year after year. By 422 (Aristophanes Wasps 662), there were 6,000 jurors per year. Cleon increased the pay rate to 3 obols a day. Pericles also started the payment of soldiers and sailors 3 obols a day. https://www.uvm.edu/~jbailly/courses/clas21/notes/atheniandemocracy.html#:~:text=By%20422%20(Aristophanes%20Wasps%20662,councillors%20and%20archons%20were%20paid https://www.uvm.edu/~jbailly/courses/clas21/notes/atheniande.... You have a very formal, academic understanding of capitalism while we are arguing that the fundamental ideas of capitalism naturally exist because that's logical for human psychology - owning things, trading, markets, paying people for labor. This is all stuff that goes back to the earliest recorded records. Cuneiform tablets are just endless accounting ledgers.
        weatherlight 3y ago

WalterBright 3y ago

> is a relatively modern concept and not the default economic state throughout human history This is speculation. > earlier societies often operated on principles of reciprocity and communal sharing rather than for-profit trade. Any society that had specialization of labor did more than that. Heck, the American Indian tribes measured their individual wealth via horse ownership. They certainly engaged in trade with the intent of profit.

nextaccountic 3y ago
horse ownership? that was after european contact, right?
- WalterBright 3y ago
  Yes. The first thing that happened with european contact was trade. I don't believe they were unfamiliar with it.
weatherlight 3y ago
That’s not speculation. Capitalism is more that just trading for profit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
- monero-xmr 3y ago
  Capitalism is about accumulating resources privately, and then using those accumulated resources to invest in earning more resources. If you believe that early man was capable of thinking, "This shit is my shit, that shit is your shit, and if you take my shit I will punish you", then you have the precursors for capitalism. Academics like to throw a bunch of other nonsense around but that's it.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  From your link: "Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit."
  - weatherlight 3y ago
    exactly, "private ownership of the means of production...." that's an important distinction. It also says, "Central characteristics of capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive markets, price systems, private property, property rights recognition, voluntary exchange, and wage labor." Literally the next sentence. I'd rather not argue the very well understood definition of Capitalism. You can't have wage labor unless you have money as a construct.
    - monero-xmr 3y ago
      They paid people in ancient times. They knew what a typical day's wage was in Athens: > Also during Pericles' tenure, pay for civic service was instituted. No single other reform furthered democracy as much as pay for service. Now many more people could afford to serve, and for some, serving became attractive financially. First, dicasts, or jurors, began to be paid. A low rate, but half a day's wages or so. That was introduced by Pericles while Cimon was still around, perhaps to counteract his liberality with his own wealth. Jurors were appointed by lot annually and could serve year after year. By 422 (Aristophanes Wasps 662), there were 6,000 jurors per year. Cleon increased the pay rate to 3 obols a day. Pericles also started the payment of soldiers and sailors 3 obols a day. https://www.uvm.edu/~jbailly/courses/clas21/notes/atheniandemocracy.html#:~:text=By%20422%20(Aristophanes%20Wasps%20662,councillors%20and%20archons%20were%20paid https://www.uvm.edu/~jbailly/courses/clas21/notes/atheniande.... You have a very formal, academic understanding of capitalism while we are arguing that the fundamental ideas of capitalism naturally exist because that's logical for human psychology - owning things, trading, markets, paying people for labor. This is all stuff that goes back to the earliest recorded records. Cuneiform tablets are just endless accounting ledgers.
      - weatherlight 3y ago