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Product Management is a hard job. You need to be technical enough to understand whats happening and have a bullshit detector, but high EQ enough to speak human.

Product Management is a hard job. You need to be technical enough to understand whats happening and have a bullshit detector, but high EQ enough to speak human. The dumb ones become sort-of project managers, tracking another set of books for tasks. The smart ones tend to deeply understand the business and move up or out. It's also a tough role to govern in that sometimes they get alot of credit for the work of others, or get no credit for anything and languish from a career pov. When this role is dumped into engineering, engineering management or general management, it weakens the engineering practice. If I need engineers, I need to select for that ability and frankly shield them from people on the outside. If the org requires that my teams handle interaction, now I'm hiring people with mixed skillsets in one org, which inevitably waters down the engineering side.

shostack 3y ago
I really hope you're not implying that project managers are or need to be less smart than product managers. They are different disciplines, and like any profession there's likely more people who are not good at it than people that are. But I've worked with great visionary product people and excellent project and program managers (and strive to be one every day myself). Neither could do the other's job well or effectively. They need to be laser focused on different things, and their EQ tends to be tuned to different wavelengths.
- alienlid 3y ago
  Project managers usually don't need to know as much as product managers, or be as thoughtful as them to be a great value add. Project managers have a larger range of "acceptable" performance to be able to add value, so their job certainly is easier.
- kcplate 3y ago
  Perhaps it was inelegantly put by the original commenter, but I think the gist is that the product managers who lack some of the important product management skills around vision, ability to be customer facing, and effective and articulate communications tend to work more like project managers—effective acting as tactical managers within a product as opposed to strategic ones for the product. We can define and name the roles all sorts of things (project manager, product owner, product manager, product marketing manager), but what it boils to is for any complex product there is a need for the management of the product at a holistic level and a need for management of a product at a granular level.
- Spooky23 3y ago
  I wasn’t writing a treatise on every occupation and was being a little jocular. What I’ve witnessed over a 20 year career is that weak product people devolve to mediocre project managers. It’s easier to be a shitty project manager. Good project managers are gold. I worked with one who stood out a decade ago - his leadership at execution was such that a $350M, 20 month implementation, with collaboration with construction, tech, and external suppliers completed 45 minutes ahead of the original schedule. He’s since retired and passed away, but an inspirational leader I was privileged to get to know. Ponder that - how many project managers are acknowledged as leaders?
  - trog 3y ago
    Couldn't agree more. I didn't really get project management until I'd worked with a few good ones.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    > his leadership at execution was such that a $350M, 20 month implementation, with collaboration with construction, tech, and external suppliers completed 45 minutes ahead of the original schedule This made me smile. I'm assuming you mean 45 days or something. Not that any number 'ahead of schedule' is inherently a bad thing (within reason), but my mind went to "Are there really companies out there tracking 2 year projects and counting the minutes?" (and sadly, there probably are).
    - Spooky23 3y ago
      It's a little tongue in cheek. There were completion incentives around certain tasks, especially on the construction and physical side, being completed on a date. Date was defined as 4PM on the date, and there was a financial benefit to be early in many cases. The last physical task required to be completed and submitted was done at 3:15, thus "45 minutes early". That said, some major elements were tracked to the minute. I wish I could share more, it's a great story!
moandcompany 3y ago
> When this role is dumped into engineering, engineering management or general management, it weakens the engineering practice. If I need engineers, I need to select for that ability and frankly shield them from people on the outside. If the org requires that my teams handle interaction, now I'm hiring people with mixed skillsets in one org, which inevitably waters down the engineering side. I'd argue that the position taken above weakens the engineering practice. Understanding requirements (e.g. constraints) is a core element of engineering, engineering management, and general management. Part of the problem plaguing the tech industry is the "dumping" of this responsibility, and others such as "project management" into some other role. What some like to call a "specialization" may also be called an abdication of responsibilities and ultimately accountability. In my opinion, the essence of engineering is the methodical art and practice of solving problems. A fundamental part of engineering is understanding the problem(s) to be solved, the constraints, as well as the trade space and trade offs of solutions for those problems. Not all aspects of (engineering) problems are "technical" in nature, and a failure to understand this and cultivate this understanding weakens the engineering practice.
- kcplate 3y ago
  > I'd argue that the position taken above weakens the engineering practice. Understanding requirements (e.g. constraints) is a core element of engineering, engineering management, and general management. Determination, evaluation, and articulation of requirements is the sweet spot of the product manager role. Understanding those requirements is certainly necessary for an engineer to build to the requirements.
  - moandcompany 3y ago
    An engineer's understanding of requirements entails determination, evaluation, and articulation of those requirements. Calling oneself an engineer doesn't preclude their ability to do these things, and force them to call themselves a "product manager" for doing so. And quite often, especially at more senior levels, an engineer must do these things. Once upon a time, this too was a formalized practice in engineering that people called "Systems Engineering": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_engineering https://www.nasa.gov/reference/2-0-fundamentals-of-systems-engineering/ https://www.nasa.gov/reference/2-0-fundamentals-of-systems-e...
namdnay 3y ago
> If the org requires that my teams handle interaction, now I'm hiring people with mixed skillsets in one org, which inevitably waters down the engineering side. Why on earth would being able to handle interactions “water down” engineering? They’re two perpendicular skillsets. We’re not in Hollywood, engineers don’t have to be autistic

shostack 3y ago

I really hope you're not implying that project managers are or need to be less smart than product managers. They are different disciplines, and like any profession there's likely more people who are not good at it than people that are. But I've worked with great visionary product people and excellent project and program managers (and strive to be one every day myself). Neither could do the other's job well or effectively. They need to be laser focused on different things, and their EQ tends to be tuned to different wavelengths.

alienlid 3y ago
Project managers usually don't need to know as much as product managers, or be as thoughtful as them to be a great value add. Project managers have a larger range of "acceptable" performance to be able to add value, so their job certainly is easier.
kcplate 3y ago
Perhaps it was inelegantly put by the original commenter, but I think the gist is that the product managers who lack some of the important product management skills around vision, ability to be customer facing, and effective and articulate communications tend to work more like project managers—effective acting as tactical managers within a product as opposed to strategic ones for the product. We can define and name the roles all sorts of things (project manager, product owner, product manager, product marketing manager), but what it boils to is for any complex product there is a need for the management of the product at a holistic level and a need for management of a product at a granular level.
Spooky23 3y ago
I wasn’t writing a treatise on every occupation and was being a little jocular. What I’ve witnessed over a 20 year career is that weak product people devolve to mediocre project managers. It’s easier to be a shitty project manager. Good project managers are gold. I worked with one who stood out a decade ago - his leadership at execution was such that a $350M, 20 month implementation, with collaboration with construction, tech, and external suppliers completed 45 minutes ahead of the original schedule. He’s since retired and passed away, but an inspirational leader I was privileged to get to know. Ponder that - how many project managers are acknowledged as leaders?
- trog 3y ago
  Couldn't agree more. I didn't really get project management until I'd worked with a few good ones.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  > his leadership at execution was such that a $350M, 20 month implementation, with collaboration with construction, tech, and external suppliers completed 45 minutes ahead of the original schedule This made me smile. I'm assuming you mean 45 days or something. Not that any number 'ahead of schedule' is inherently a bad thing (within reason), but my mind went to "Are there really companies out there tracking 2 year projects and counting the minutes?" (and sadly, there probably are).
  - Spooky23 3y ago
    It's a little tongue in cheek. There were completion incentives around certain tasks, especially on the construction and physical side, being completed on a date. Date was defined as 4PM on the date, and there was a financial benefit to be early in many cases. The last physical task required to be completed and submitted was done at 3:15, thus "45 minutes early". That said, some major elements were tracked to the minute. I wish I could share more, it's a great story!

moandcompany 3y ago

> When this role is dumped into engineering, engineering management or general management, it weakens the engineering practice. If I need engineers, I need to select for that ability and frankly shield them from people on the outside. If the org requires that my teams handle interaction, now I'm hiring people with mixed skillsets in one org, which inevitably waters down the engineering side. I'd argue that the position taken above weakens the engineering practice. Understanding requirements (e.g. constraints) is a core element of engineering, engineering management, and general management. Part of the problem plaguing the tech industry is the "dumping" of this responsibility, and others such as "project management" into some other role. What some like to call a "specialization" may also be called an abdication of responsibilities and ultimately accountability. In my opinion, the essence of engineering is the methodical art and practice of solving problems. A fundamental part of engineering is understanding the problem(s) to be solved, the constraints, as well as the trade space and trade offs of solutions for those problems. Not all aspects of (engineering) problems are "technical" in nature, and a failure to understand this and cultivate this understanding weakens the engineering practice.

kcplate 3y ago
> I'd argue that the position taken above weakens the engineering practice. Understanding requirements (e.g. constraints) is a core element of engineering, engineering management, and general management. Determination, evaluation, and articulation of requirements is the sweet spot of the product manager role. Understanding those requirements is certainly necessary for an engineer to build to the requirements.
- moandcompany 3y ago
  An engineer's understanding of requirements entails determination, evaluation, and articulation of those requirements. Calling oneself an engineer doesn't preclude their ability to do these things, and force them to call themselves a "product manager" for doing so. And quite often, especially at more senior levels, an engineer must do these things. Once upon a time, this too was a formalized practice in engineering that people called "Systems Engineering": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_engineering https://www.nasa.gov/reference/2-0-fundamentals-of-systems-engineering/ https://www.nasa.gov/reference/2-0-fundamentals-of-systems-e...

namdnay 3y ago

> If the org requires that my teams handle interaction, now I'm hiring people with mixed skillsets in one org, which inevitably waters down the engineering side. Why on earth would being able to handle interactions “water down” engineering? They’re two perpendicular skillsets. We’re not in Hollywood, engineers don’t have to be autistic