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> Developing crushes on people you actually know in your social scenes is more reasonable You are absolutely correct here, but the primary problem with this is

• kjellsbells 3y ago
  > a combination of sexual harassment statutes, #metoo movements, and generalized "women don't ever want to be approached" zeitgeist has closed this avenue off. Wait, what? This reads like the classic boomer complaint that is hard to get to know women when you can't slap their ass in the office any more. "No one can take a joke any more, etc etc" Women are not a monolithic voting bloc. Some will respond to approaches that repel or bore others. The only way to know is to get to know them as people first and potential romantic partners second. This is why a social scene, or in some cultures, extended clan gatherings, is so important: you see someone in a relaxed setting and can make some assessment of their personality and values. This also means that it takes time. I don't want to say that we should all go back to the weird heteronormative 1950s, but using as many social networks as possible, including unusual ones, is essential. As an older dude who has seen the games that young men play at work, I understand that the hormonal drive for guys is absolutely saturating, but you will fail and fail again if you think that #metoo stops you. If it did, you were misbehaving to start with.
  • pierat 3y ago
    > Wait, what? This reads like the classic boomer complaint that is hard to get to know women when you can't slap their ass in the office any more. "No one can take a joke any more, etc etc" No, it's the extremism that's a problem. Men went towards TheRedPill and similar idiots. And especially the younger millennial women and younger have seen this garbage for what it is. However the pendulum swings to compensate. I've heard recently from quite a few places the old radical quote from 2nd wave "sex is always rape because of patriarchal power imbalance". I've also slapped precisely 0 butts in the workplace. Nor have I said the usual shitty "women do _" things. But the problem is so many younger generations's women are overly on guard. Hell, I've had them (at work) ask "don't I look good?", seeking attention. I flatly said that I don't make comments on appearance of men or women. If I wasn't already with someone, I'd likely be with nobody. It's too toxic out there as a man or someone who presents as a man.
    • johnnyanmac 3y ago
      >If I wasn't already with someone, I'd likely be with nobody. How did you end up getting with someone in that case?
      • pierat 3y ago
        It was pretty much complete luck, on both our sides. Neither of us were looking for relationships, or sex, or whatever. We've never done any dating apps. We met literally in the Starbucks line. Conversation started up, we both had time and sat down for coffee. It just went from there. We've been together for 10y. Would it happen like that or similar again to either of us? Nope. Nor is it repeatable.
        • johnnyanmac 3y ago
          I see. Indeed very much happenstance. Still it gives me a tiny shred of hope and encourages me to just keep stepping outside even when I don't fully feel like it. If there's some chance encounter where I can find a great friend or even a partner, I don't want to squander it being stuck alone in the house if I can help it.
  • satokema 3y ago
    the absolute problem for me personally is the lack of social scene, i don't actually remember the last time i talked to anyone single, even at the few parties i forced myself to go to.
  • pydry 3y ago
    >if you think that #metoo stops you. If it did, you were misbehaving to start with. If you read up on the Richard Stallman #metoo cancelation attempt I'd really like to know how you thought he was misbehaving because from my perspective it was simply used to jeer at and bully somebody vulnerable. I think it's pretty rational to think that could happen to somebody else.
    • fsociety 3y ago
      I could spontaneously combust tomorrow, but I don’t build my life around that. Interacting with people has a risk associated with it. For women, this risk is much higher. For men, now with things like #metoo, the risk has been raised. If you are out talking with a woman and get weird/bad vibes, politely excuse yourself and stop interacting with them. Don’t dig a deeper hole. The majority of woman will let you know if they are not interested. Poor social skills does not excuse behavior which makes someone feel unsafe.
      • pydry 3y ago
        >For men, now with things like #metoo, the risk has been raised. Yes, that was my entire point. The movement didn't only mean that more Weinsteins got what they deserved. It also lowered the bar of what is considered "creepy" and raised the risks of behavior which is perceived as such, whether legitimately or not.
        • pacija 3y ago
          A lot of people basically don't have strong enough urge to fcuk. Something is skrewed with the chemistry. Social aspects are just noise around it.
      • zlg_codes 3y ago
        What right does society have to demand that men act docile? Nobody cares an iota for our SAFETY, let alone our comfort. A society that isn't built on reciprocation is not a society worthy of my respect.
    • 3y ago
  • johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >As an older dude who has seen the games that young men play at work, I understand that the hormonal drive for guys is absolutely saturating, but you will fail and fail again if you think that #metoo stops you. If it did, you were misbehaving to start with. Quite the contrary. I don't want to misbehave or be construed as misbehaving so I never tried anything at all. You see the most negative examples so of course you won't see the ones who don't want any risks at their workplace and put their head down. Even on HN you will see a lot of people who hate conversing with coworkers and simply want to clock in and clock out, with no interest in making friends. And I feel that's a minor factor that leads to such behavior.
  • sidlls 3y ago
    Is it not possible there are multiple extremes at work here? The boomer example you provided is something I think is generally agreeable: it's not acceptable to go around slapping asses (man or woman) in the way you describe. However, when the (alleged) "victim's" interpretation of something is given as much weight as it is in these laws (and it is--anyone who's had a corporate sexual harassment training course knows this), it greatly increases the risk of even more mundane interactions being reported as harassment. Even if the real rate of reports is tiny (or even unchanged from an era prior to the existence and refinement of these laws), the perception of risk still matters.
  • scarmig 3y ago
    I would say that you're right in some sense: most women are fine with someone respectfully asking them out. But the tricky part here is that there is a minority of women (say, the most sensitive 10%) who get genuinely upset or feel harassed by an indicator of interest in any given setting. When you're asking people out, you don't know what a particular woman's boundaries are upfront, and if you ask out the wrong woman, it can genuinely mess up your social or professional circles. This applies in friend groups and even if you look for positive indicators of interest: one woman might think giving a lingering hug is her being very explicit about her interest, while another thinks of a hug as obviously purely playonic and reacts very negatively if you take that as an okay to express your own interest. Dating apps prefilter for "acceptable to indicate interest to" and let you avoid an ambiguous landscape that's impossible to perfectly navigate.
• closeparen 3y ago
  The legal and political concepts of sexual harassment come into play in contexts where women can’t just leave (workplace, industry). I don’t think you get fired or sued or arrested for asking someone out at soccer or pottery class or running club. But women might not want to be in environments where that keeps happening, and those groups might develop taboos in order to survive.
  • andrei_says_ 3y ago
    Asking out is ok but asking out repeatedly or insisting on any other way may make the venue uncomfortable for both people and thus force one to leave their hobby, friends etc.
    • DiggyJohnson 3y ago
      I feel like you’re restating, or at least stating, the obvious takeaway: don’t ask out repeatedly or insist. It’s okay to ask, but learn to take a hint.
      • andrei_says_ 3y ago
        What I’m also present to is the additional risk of post-rejection awkwardness while sharing the same community long term. My communities are very valuable to me which makes such an endeavor high stakes. So I thread lightly.
        • DiggyJohnson 3y ago
          Yes, there’s always that. It’s always less risky to not express these things, but there’s a world of difference between the risk of embarrassment that comes with rejection, and losing an entire community. Avoiding catastrophe is a skill, and I think it comes with balancing self-confidence / charisma with learning to take the hint, among other things.
          • andrei_says_ 3y ago
• tester756 3y ago
  >#metoo movements, and generalized "women don't ever want to be approached" zeitgeist It (the extreme of what you're writing about) exists only on the internet. Just turn off twitter and you'll realize those things do not exist at the scale that you think
  • samtho 3y ago
    And where it does exist, it’s usually someone exploiting power and/or access to another person, e.g. superiors in the workplace taking advantage of subordinates, customers being inappropriate to servers and not understanding or caring that it’s their job to serve them and their advances are not welcome, that weird/obsessed guy in your greater friend circle that you never want to be alone with, etc. Respectful advances in places where both people are on equal footing and there are not external pressures, have never been seen as off limits as far as I am aware.
    • alphaddx 3y ago
      That's the negative behaviour the movements were trying to address but young men interpreted it as women not wanting to be approached by them at all. That's the message social media is giving.
  • johnnyanmac 3y ago
    It's an extreme but a dangerous permanent extreme. It's not like the risk of riding a bike and breaking your leg. Legs heal.vYour reputation doesn't, especially if your hobby or career requires an online presence. Twitter aside, there is a general post COVID feeling of "coldness" out there in my anecdotal experience. It's kinda always been that way given me being in a big city (or at least, within driving distance of one), but even small talk seems to have diminished these days. Forget women, people in general just seem less interested to wave hello unless you're at a very specific function.
    • userinanother 3y ago
      As a straight male I’ve always found dating men for friendship was a lot harder than dating women
• electrondood 3y ago
  This sounds like a toxic incel point of view. If you talk to women like they're human beings instead of bizarre creatures that you need to manipulate into mating, this doesn't actually happen.
• scarface_74 3y ago
  This sounds very incellish. It’s not considered sexual harrasment to politely gauge interest and immediately back off when you see the signs they aren’t interested.
  • mcpackieh 3y ago
    My father asked my mother out 5 times before she said yes. They've now been married for 45 years. Maybe if I tried that kind of perseverance it would work, or maybe the second ask would get me labeled and witch hunted by somebody like you who would then try to ruin my life for it.
    • scarface_74 3y ago
      You should definitely not ask someone out five times at their place of employment after they have said no. At school? At church? Maybe
      • mcpackieh 3y ago
        You didn't make an exception for school, nor did the comment you replied to. The only exception they cited was church and you didn't add any yourself until now. And why is school an exception to you, but work is not? Both are places people "have to be", places where people go to do something other than flirt and where they might feel trapped in a social situation they can't easily get out of. How is "my coworker asked me out twice but I still have to work with him" different from "my co-student asked me out twice but I still have to go to class with him"? There's no meaningful difference here, particularly if you're a grad student. But I guess you'll now say that undergrads are allowed to ask somebody twice, but grad students must not ask more than once? Or maybe you'll just insult me and tell me to be miserable quietly like other people in this discussion already have.
        • scarface_74 3y ago
          Because work places in one place where you must interact with your coworkers to do your job. The bar is a lot lower for what constitutes harassment There is a certain level of professional conduct that people expect in a professional setting that’s not there in school. Also, I would be very wary of approaching someone at the gym who was working out. I use to teach at gyms part time when I was single. Women would have to really start the conversation with me before I would make any move.