6 ms·

Social pressure to commit to monogamous relationships is the only possible solution to this.

by mcpackieh 3y ago

geysersam 3y ago
Or, men could accept that they don't have a right to a romantic relationship with a woman.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    I didn’t exactly win the genetic lottery at 5 foot 4. My only saving physical grace was that I build muscle fast and even when I do let my weight go to hell, I look muscular. But is the problem that men who are looking for 10s are twos? I’m in no way considering myself more than a 5. I’m a social person by nature, I like to try different things and I’ve really spent my adult life working on my emotional intelligence. I was in more or less great physical shape throughout my 20s and 30s and even after being married for 12 years I make it my mission to stay in shape the best I physically can as does my wife - at 49 and 47.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    The unstated alternative here is that women would be forced into the misery of sexual slavery. As a man, my daughters have the freedom to decide to participate in marriage, and nobody will take that right away from them.
  - luzojeda 3y ago
    Nobody _owes_ you love nor sex. Nobody at all.
- civilitty 3y ago
  Men don’t have a right but “Too bad sucks for you” isn’t a sustainable approach to a basic biological function. Imagine saying “you don’t have a right to a meal” to a crowd of starving people. That’s how we get violent revolutions and bloody wars and mass shootings.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    Yes too bad sucks for you. There is no other option that's not horrifying for those involved. By definition anything other than freely given enthusiastic consent is coercive. Just get a masturbatior, jesus christ. Do you want to sign up for the "might get forced to be with someone who's abusive" lottery?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - agent327 3y ago
      Great rant. Now explain why it is different with taxes.
      - Spivak 3y ago
        I've heard taxation is theft, taxation is rape is definitely a new one. Realistically, if I were forced into that I would kill my husband or myself. I would rather be in jail or dead than be subjected to institutionalized human trafficking and domestic slavery. That's the difference. You're trying to draw an equivalence between a mountain and mole hill in magnitude by saying that what they have in common is that they're backed by the force of law.
      - geysersam 3y ago
        For several reasons. First, taxes builds the foundation of a productive society. Without them we would all be less productive. Second, taxes makes sure we provide for people who are not able to provide their basic needs for themselves, this is a moral obligation (in my opinion).
- pavlov 3y ago
  There is a surprising amount of overlap between two groups of people: those who argue that society should not provide any material benefits or services (money, housing, healthcare etc.) to its members, and those who argue that society should be structured so that men have access to sex.
- agent327 3y ago
  As far as I can tell it's the women that are complaining about the lack of available men, not the reverse.
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    Tell from what? I've always heard it as the exact opposite. From the article: From men: > The apps are algorithmic doom barrels > I’m fated to end up alone > he has tried Bumble, Match, Badoo and Facebook dating, but in nearly three years has only met one person, with whom he had six dates before the relationship ended > The vast majority of matches have resulted in no dialogue, most of the rest there was a bit of to and fro before being ghosted From women: > I meet so many men,” she says enthusiastically > So I’ve given myself the challenge of flirting with one person every day, which has been a lot of fun > I was getting a torrent of likes – and I absolutely hated it > I’m simply looking for an interesting or creative person, and that’s one thing you can’t spot easily on an app, but then I’d get too many matches, which was really overwhelming > I’d get a lot of comments about being a wheelchair user Hell even disabled women seem to have absolutely no issue getting matches. Maybe the buffet of men they get to fastidiously sort through isn't well stocked enough for them? Well la di da, welcome to reality.
    - agent327 3y ago
      There appears to be quite a large contingent of women that are upset with so-called 'passport bros', as well as women that have hit the wall and haven't yet come to terms with the fact that it's too late to establish a family. But you are right that younger women are having the time of their lives; for that group, everything is possible on the dating apps.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    s/available/acceptable and you have it. There's a reason for this, how we raise girls is tailored to making good girlfriend/wife material. You don't see the incredible amount of effort that is spent over a lifetime to this end because we're used to it. Once you see the dynamic you can't unsee it. It even happens with bisexual women where the joke is, "I'm attracted to like 10 men and every woman." For better and worse boys don't get this treatment. If you spent 10,000 hours under the weight of intense social and societal pressure to mold yourself into someone that you think of as attractive because your social status depends on it, where the idea of what's attractive that has been planted into your brain since birth lines up with what women find desirable in a partner i'd bet you'd be a catch too. There's a huge impedance mismatch that is set up to hurt men which is that being the kind of guy that women find attractive hurts your social status among men. Pretty boy is used as an insult but you will find no shortage of women throwing themselves at them.
- 4bpp 3y ago
  This is a spectacularly polemic framing that can only serve to score points, not advance civil discussion. In other domains it seems that our society has come to terms with the idea that systemic discrepancies in attainment can't just be dismissed by looking at low-attainment individuals in isolation - would you accept "$minority people could accept that they don't have a right to a job at Google/spot at Harvard/position in government" as a retort against allegations of racial discrimination?
  - PoignardAzur 3y ago
    I mean, it doesn't seem more spectacularly polemic to me than "Social pressure to commit to monogamous relationships is the only possible solution to this".
    - 4bpp 3y ago
      It does to me; your quoted sentiment amounts to a concrete claim that can be argued for or against, and does not insinuate that the position of the speaker's opponents is due to something that everyone in the discussion would be bound to agree to be an indefensible moral failing. A contextually appropriate mirrored version of the statement I responded to would be something along the lines of "or women could accept that they don't have a right to a romantic relationship with a rich, hot, committed and deferential movie star". Would you consider that no worse than the "enforced monogamy" claim?
      - helpfulmandrill 3y ago
        Women aren't saying they have a right to go out with a movie star. At worst, some of them are choosing, upon finding out they can't get the movie star, to remain single. Which would seem to be their right, no? Even if us non-movie-star males might prefer if they chose differently.
  - geysersam 3y ago
    I don't agree. The difference is that people do have a right to not be discriminated against because of their race etc. But no right to force another person to be in a romantic relationship with them.
- vhcr 3y ago
  Let me introduce you to the article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: > Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    This comment is so eye-poppingly fatuous that I don't even know where to begin. The parent commenter is speaking about how people (a group which includes women) have the right to choose who they want to marry, which includes the right to marry nobody at all. You appear to be using the declaration of human rights to imply that the desire of one person to marry another somehow overrides the prior right, which is utter nonsense. Please refrain from commenting if you can't provide a more cogent argument than ChatGPT.
jamilton 3y ago
Such pressure does exist. And it's even stronger in, say, Christian communities, but I don't think it makes finding a partner a breeze in them (although they do tend to get married sooner?)

Social pressure to commit to monogamous relationships is the only possible solution to this.

geysersam 3y ago

Or, men could accept that they don't have a right to a romantic relationship with a woman.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mcpackieh 3y ago
[flagged]
- scarface_74 3y ago
  I didn’t exactly win the genetic lottery at 5 foot 4. My only saving physical grace was that I build muscle fast and even when I do let my weight go to hell, I look muscular. But is the problem that men who are looking for 10s are twos? I’m in no way considering myself more than a 5. I’m a social person by nature, I like to try different things and I’ve really spent my adult life working on my emotional intelligence. I was in more or less great physical shape throughout my 20s and 30s and even after being married for 12 years I make it my mission to stay in shape the best I physically can as does my wife - at 49 and 47.
- kibwen 3y ago
  The unstated alternative here is that women would be forced into the misery of sexual slavery. As a man, my daughters have the freedom to decide to participate in marriage, and nobody will take that right away from them.
- luzojeda 3y ago
  Nobody _owes_ you love nor sex. Nobody at all.
civilitty 3y ago
Men don’t have a right but “Too bad sucks for you” isn’t a sustainable approach to a basic biological function. Imagine saying “you don’t have a right to a meal” to a crowd of starving people. That’s how we get violent revolutions and bloody wars and mass shootings.
- Spivak 3y ago
  Yes too bad sucks for you. There is no other option that's not horrifying for those involved. By definition anything other than freely given enthusiastic consent is coercive. Just get a masturbatior, jesus christ. Do you want to sign up for the "might get forced to be with someone who's abusive" lottery?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - agent327 3y ago
    Great rant. Now explain why it is different with taxes.
    - Spivak 3y ago
      I've heard taxation is theft, taxation is rape is definitely a new one. Realistically, if I were forced into that I would kill my husband or myself. I would rather be in jail or dead than be subjected to institutionalized human trafficking and domestic slavery. That's the difference. You're trying to draw an equivalence between a mountain and mole hill in magnitude by saying that what they have in common is that they're backed by the force of law.
    - geysersam 3y ago
      For several reasons. First, taxes builds the foundation of a productive society. Without them we would all be less productive. Second, taxes makes sure we provide for people who are not able to provide their basic needs for themselves, this is a moral obligation (in my opinion).
pavlov 3y ago
There is a surprising amount of overlap between two groups of people: those who argue that society should not provide any material benefits or services (money, housing, healthcare etc.) to its members, and those who argue that society should be structured so that men have access to sex.
agent327 3y ago
As far as I can tell it's the women that are complaining about the lack of available men, not the reverse.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  Tell from what? I've always heard it as the exact opposite. From the article: From men: > The apps are algorithmic doom barrels > I’m fated to end up alone > he has tried Bumble, Match, Badoo and Facebook dating, but in nearly three years has only met one person, with whom he had six dates before the relationship ended > The vast majority of matches have resulted in no dialogue, most of the rest there was a bit of to and fro before being ghosted From women: > I meet so many men,” she says enthusiastically > So I’ve given myself the challenge of flirting with one person every day, which has been a lot of fun > I was getting a torrent of likes – and I absolutely hated it > I’m simply looking for an interesting or creative person, and that’s one thing you can’t spot easily on an app, but then I’d get too many matches, which was really overwhelming > I’d get a lot of comments about being a wheelchair user Hell even disabled women seem to have absolutely no issue getting matches. Maybe the buffet of men they get to fastidiously sort through isn't well stocked enough for them? Well la di da, welcome to reality.
  - agent327 3y ago
    There appears to be quite a large contingent of women that are upset with so-called 'passport bros', as well as women that have hit the wall and haven't yet come to terms with the fact that it's too late to establish a family. But you are right that younger women are having the time of their lives; for that group, everything is possible on the dating apps.
- Spivak 3y ago
  s/available/acceptable and you have it. There's a reason for this, how we raise girls is tailored to making good girlfriend/wife material. You don't see the incredible amount of effort that is spent over a lifetime to this end because we're used to it. Once you see the dynamic you can't unsee it. It even happens with bisexual women where the joke is, "I'm attracted to like 10 men and every woman." For better and worse boys don't get this treatment. If you spent 10,000 hours under the weight of intense social and societal pressure to mold yourself into someone that you think of as attractive because your social status depends on it, where the idea of what's attractive that has been planted into your brain since birth lines up with what women find desirable in a partner i'd bet you'd be a catch too. There's a huge impedance mismatch that is set up to hurt men which is that being the kind of guy that women find attractive hurts your social status among men. Pretty boy is used as an insult but you will find no shortage of women throwing themselves at them.
4bpp 3y ago
This is a spectacularly polemic framing that can only serve to score points, not advance civil discussion. In other domains it seems that our society has come to terms with the idea that systemic discrepancies in attainment can't just be dismissed by looking at low-attainment individuals in isolation - would you accept "$minority people could accept that they don't have a right to a job at Google/spot at Harvard/position in government" as a retort against allegations of racial discrimination?
- PoignardAzur 3y ago
  I mean, it doesn't seem more spectacularly polemic to me than "Social pressure to commit to monogamous relationships is the only possible solution to this".
  - 4bpp 3y ago
    It does to me; your quoted sentiment amounts to a concrete claim that can be argued for or against, and does not insinuate that the position of the speaker's opponents is due to something that everyone in the discussion would be bound to agree to be an indefensible moral failing. A contextually appropriate mirrored version of the statement I responded to would be something along the lines of "or women could accept that they don't have a right to a romantic relationship with a rich, hot, committed and deferential movie star". Would you consider that no worse than the "enforced monogamy" claim?
    - helpfulmandrill 3y ago
      Women aren't saying they have a right to go out with a movie star. At worst, some of them are choosing, upon finding out they can't get the movie star, to remain single. Which would seem to be their right, no? Even if us non-movie-star males might prefer if they chose differently.
- geysersam 3y ago
  I don't agree. The difference is that people do have a right to not be discriminated against because of their race etc. But no right to force another person to be in a romantic relationship with them.
vhcr 3y ago
Let me introduce you to the article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: > Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
- kibwen 3y ago
  This comment is so eye-poppingly fatuous that I don't even know where to begin. The parent commenter is speaking about how people (a group which includes women) have the right to choose who they want to marry, which includes the right to marry nobody at all. You appear to be using the declaration of human rights to imply that the desire of one person to marry another somehow overrides the prior right, which is utter nonsense. Please refrain from commenting if you can't provide a more cogent argument than ChatGPT.

jamilton 3y ago

Such pressure does exist. And it's even stronger in, say, Christian communities, but I don't think it makes finding a partner a breeze in them (although they do tend to get married sooner?)