12 ms·

"Overhunting" vs. "undermanagement" feels like a distinction without a difference outside a small circle of purely scientific inquiry.

cyberax 3y ago
Not really? They are almost entirely different. The situation with bison in the US was deeply unnatural when you think about it. Bison are large herbivores, that can reproduce fairly quickly, and that don't have any consistent predators. Nothing in the US can hunt them successfully and consistently. A wolf pack can take down a grown bison, but it's risky for them, and the wolf population was nowhere large enough to control the bison population numbers. Cougars and coyotes can prey on calves, but not on healthy grown bison.
- dev_tty01 3y ago
  Unnatural? Not sure I understand the use of the term here. They were here for several hundred thousand years so there were only natural forces at work. There must have been some kind of balance if they thrived for that long. At the very least food availability would have limited their numbers in some way. It isn't dissimilar to the situation with bears. Just guessing, but I would think there would have been a lot of cougars eating a lot of calves. That would also have some restraining impact on the population.
  - cyberax 3y ago
    > They were here for several hundred thousand years so there were only natural forces at work. Only if you include Native Americans in the "natural" forces. They were responsible for the disappearance of the local megafauna. > At the very least food availability would have limited their numbers in some way. Or maybe periodic population collapses due to disease. > It isn't dissimilar to the situation with bears. Grizzly bears have one of the slowest reproduction rates, though. They simply won't have cubs if there isn't enough food. In Africa, it's a similar story with elephants, nothing can hunt them consistently, but they reproduce so slowly that they can't really overpopulate the area.
  - sidewndr46 3y ago
    I think you're missing the fact that Native Americans were here in number for thousands of year before Europeans. The herds were a result of North America before the Columbian exchange. Not a result of a pristine wilderness with only "natural forces at work"
hluska 3y ago
When it comes to buffalo, in Canada at least, the term “mismanagement” is the most appropriate of all three. For Plains indigenous people, the buffalo were a massive part of their culture, spirituality and history. Hundreds of generations had lived alongside the buffalo herds and become a part of their life cycle. Their hunts, while truly massive, participated in the life cycle and ensured stable herds. When european settlers came, they had absolutely no understanding of that life cycle so their hunts were in opposition. Then as they started importing european land ownership and putting up fences, the ecosystem collapsed. They hadn’t followed the herds for generations so really didn’t know how much land a herd actually needed to sustain itself. It was really the wrong hunting even more so than over hunting. Early communities had names like “Pile of Bones” that were indicative of the scale of earlier hunts.

cyberax 3y ago

Not really? They are almost entirely different. The situation with bison in the US was deeply unnatural when you think about it. Bison are large herbivores, that can reproduce fairly quickly, and that don't have any consistent predators. Nothing in the US can hunt them successfully and consistently. A wolf pack can take down a grown bison, but it's risky for them, and the wolf population was nowhere large enough to control the bison population numbers. Cougars and coyotes can prey on calves, but not on healthy grown bison.

dev_tty01 3y ago
Unnatural? Not sure I understand the use of the term here. They were here for several hundred thousand years so there were only natural forces at work. There must have been some kind of balance if they thrived for that long. At the very least food availability would have limited their numbers in some way. It isn't dissimilar to the situation with bears. Just guessing, but I would think there would have been a lot of cougars eating a lot of calves. That would also have some restraining impact on the population.
- cyberax 3y ago
  > They were here for several hundred thousand years so there were only natural forces at work. Only if you include Native Americans in the "natural" forces. They were responsible for the disappearance of the local megafauna. > At the very least food availability would have limited their numbers in some way. Or maybe periodic population collapses due to disease. > It isn't dissimilar to the situation with bears. Grizzly bears have one of the slowest reproduction rates, though. They simply won't have cubs if there isn't enough food. In Africa, it's a similar story with elephants, nothing can hunt them consistently, but they reproduce so slowly that they can't really overpopulate the area.
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  I think you're missing the fact that Native Americans were here in number for thousands of year before Europeans. The herds were a result of North America before the Columbian exchange. Not a result of a pristine wilderness with only "natural forces at work"

hluska 3y ago

When it comes to buffalo, in Canada at least, the term “mismanagement” is the most appropriate of all three. For Plains indigenous people, the buffalo were a massive part of their culture, spirituality and history. Hundreds of generations had lived alongside the buffalo herds and become a part of their life cycle. Their hunts, while truly massive, participated in the life cycle and ensured stable herds. When european settlers came, they had absolutely no understanding of that life cycle so their hunts were in opposition. Then as they started importing european land ownership and putting up fences, the ecosystem collapsed. They hadn’t followed the herds for generations so really didn’t know how much land a herd actually needed to sustain itself. It was really the wrong hunting even more so than over hunting. Early communities had names like “Pile of Bones” that were indicative of the scale of earlier hunts.