3 ms·

I really really want Microsoft to succeed with WP7. I know Microsoft/Windows hate is popular, and I'm not saying it hasn't been justified at times, but we need

I really really want Microsoft to succeed with WP7. I know Microsoft/Windows hate is popular, and I'm not saying it hasn't been justified at times, but we need a solid third competitor to Android and iOS. More competition -> everybody wins. But - reading this, I realized I had almost no idea what Microsoft's app store is like, or even how typical apps look. I looked up the Facebook app ( http://www.windowsphone.com/en-US/apps/82a23635-5bd9-df11-a844-00237de2db9e http://www.windowsphone.com/en-US/apps/82a23635-5bd9-df11-a8... ) and have to say... do they all look like that? Where almost 1/3 of the view is dead space? Even on the screen where it's partly used, it looks like they just couldn't get the layout quite right. Then there is the massive title on each "tab", and I've always kind of liked the metro look but does it have to take up so much space?

bmelton 15y ago
It's interesting you bring that up, as my Xbox and ICS Galaxy S started somewhat converging on a boxy layout style at around the same time not long ago. While I am obviously biased, I feel like the changes were a big UI improvement in Android, as, while the layouts are definitely boxy, they fit together well, and do a great job of highlighting action items and guiding my interactions. On my Xbox, I've found that it often leads to extra clicks being necessary where they weren't before. I quit questioning the design decisions when I (not too irrationally) concluded that they must have done it to assist with Kinect users, dragging a large virtual hand around the screen... that is, until you posted those screenshots, and the layout really, really looks about as busted as it does on the Xbox. It's somewhat visually appealing, and while I think that, generally, it still looks like a better alternative to the usual Microsoftian clutter, it's definitely a long way from being good (IMHO).
zmmmmm 15y ago
> I've always kind of liked the metro look but does it have to take up so much space? This has actually been a well known criticism of WP7 that goes under the name "low information density". People counter that by saying it's a feature, not a bug. For me, it creates a problem because every time I pick up a WP7 handset it feels like a feature phone. The nicest feature-phone I ever held, but it still has this limited, focused, prebaked feel that I find hard to explain but which exactly reminds me of the same feeling I get with feature phones. I think the smart phone market is very much an aspirational one where people expect to feel like they're stepping into the future, and WP7 just doesn't feel like that. As much as everyone praises iOS for it's polished and slick nature, that's not actually why people are buying phones (and also why Android succeeds in spite of having missed the polish). They are trying to empower themselves with something more advanced than their previous phone which probably already had things like a facebook widget and weather app, etc.
- underwater 15y ago
  When I switched from iOS my first thought was "there's so much chrome." Useless borders, shadows, textures and gloss abound. Generally the phones are similar in capabilities but I think the overly complicate iOS design makes people assume it's a more advanced product.
- Joeri 15y ago
  I feel that windows phone is more realistic in its assumptions of how tiny and dense content can be and remain usable, but that's probably because i don't have perfect vision. I also think the chromeless look is more future-oriented, because it won't look dated as quickly. The iOS look already seems dated to me (perhaps because i used a mac for years before i saw iOS). Oh, and the app-centric model of iOS and Android is in my opinion a design flaw. A humane design shouldn't organize based on apps but based on tasks, and those tasks shouldn't get equal visibility an an icon grid.
pilgrim689 15y ago
From what I can tell as a WP7 user, the Facebook app's navigation takes up more space than other apps. Those "tabs" that look a bit big are not usually "dead space". In Microsoft-developed apps (Office and Music, for example), the tab titles slide up and away as you go through vertical content. So all that's left is the logo at the top. I've been using a LG Optimus for a year now, and I've never felt that the interface was cramped, so maybe it just looks odd to a non-user.
- farnsworth 15y ago
  > the tab titles slide up and away as you go through vertical content. So all that's left is the logo at the top. Ah, that makes a lot of sense. I figured it wasn't fair to judge a UI by a couple static screenshots. But at first glance it does look strange.
thought_alarm 15y ago
Microsoft needs apps and developers so they can stop getting so much negative press about the lack of apps and developers. But in order for Microsft to really be successful they need to get support from the carriers, and historically that's something they've failed to understand. Most of the market is made up of people who walk into a carrier store, ask for a phone that does the email and stuff, and walk out with a Samsung model they've never heard of. Microsoft needs these people to walk out of the store with a Windows Phone (they've never heard of before). But the carriers control the whole process. The carriers therefore demand control over the hardware and software, and the successful manufacturers give it to them. Nokia understands this very well, but it doesn't seem like Microsoft is giving them the freedom they need to make the carriers happy. If Microsoft goes into this trying to compete with Apple they're going to fail because every single carrier will be against them. To succeed, they need to forget about Apple and start competing with Samsung, LG, HTC, Motorola, and RIM. Ultimately, that means creating software that is less appealing to the tech community, and more appealing to the carriers. Give the carriers something that Samsung can't, on a device that looks good next to a poster of an iPhone, and they'll have something big. Then the apps and developers will follow.
- underwater 15y ago
  Windows 8 for ARM will lack the classics desktop and also run WP7 apps. In appearance it looks very similar to the phone OS. It makes sense that it will be the next step for their mobile platform. I don't see how this makes WP7 a dead end. Even the naming indicates that the core Windows product and mobile version are related and intended to evolve together.
underwater 15y ago
I have a Windows Phone. The Facebook app (disclaimer: I'm an employee) is quite nice despite missing some features I want. It is representative of the Metro "design language". In everyday use it doesn't feel like wasted space. It's hard to describe without using but the layout uses lots of vertical scrolling and the space to the left and right is usually a continuation of the current screent that shows related data (in the case of the Facebook app you swipe from newsfeed to a list of your photos then messages). This is very different to the static screens popular on iOS, and feels really nice to interact with. The problem Microsoft faces is that the unique design of Metro excludes the possibility of a port of existing mobile apps. Apps need to be designed from scratch using native code - embedded web views won't cut it - which is expensive to do.
- TazeTSchnitzel 15y ago
  The same is true of Windows 8, it also requires everyone to create new Metro-based designs for their apps. Heck, it doesn't allow the traditional Win32 APIs. It might explain why the Windows 8 Beta store is basically empty.
  - cooldeal 15y ago
    >It might explain why the Windows 8 Beta store is basically empty. What? There are better quality apps for Windows 8 beta than Android tablet apps for my ICS tablet.
    - nosht 15y ago
      Out of curiosity, could you name some?
tomjen3 15y ago
More choice is not necessarily good. It means higher cost of development and therefore less apps.

bmelton 15y ago

It's interesting you bring that up, as my Xbox and ICS Galaxy S started somewhat converging on a boxy layout style at around the same time not long ago. While I am obviously biased, I feel like the changes were a big UI improvement in Android, as, while the layouts are definitely boxy, they fit together well, and do a great job of highlighting action items and guiding my interactions. On my Xbox, I've found that it often leads to extra clicks being necessary where they weren't before. I quit questioning the design decisions when I (not too irrationally) concluded that they must have done it to assist with Kinect users, dragging a large virtual hand around the screen... that is, until you posted those screenshots, and the layout really, really looks about as busted as it does on the Xbox. It's somewhat visually appealing, and while I think that, generally, it still looks like a better alternative to the usual Microsoftian clutter, it's definitely a long way from being good (IMHO).

zmmmmm 15y ago

> I've always kind of liked the metro look but does it have to take up so much space? This has actually been a well known criticism of WP7 that goes under the name "low information density". People counter that by saying it's a feature, not a bug. For me, it creates a problem because every time I pick up a WP7 handset it feels like a feature phone. The nicest feature-phone I ever held, but it still has this limited, focused, prebaked feel that I find hard to explain but which exactly reminds me of the same feeling I get with feature phones. I think the smart phone market is very much an aspirational one where people expect to feel like they're stepping into the future, and WP7 just doesn't feel like that. As much as everyone praises iOS for it's polished and slick nature, that's not actually why people are buying phones (and also why Android succeeds in spite of having missed the polish). They are trying to empower themselves with something more advanced than their previous phone which probably already had things like a facebook widget and weather app, etc.

underwater 15y ago
When I switched from iOS my first thought was "there's so much chrome." Useless borders, shadows, textures and gloss abound. Generally the phones are similar in capabilities but I think the overly complicate iOS design makes people assume it's a more advanced product.
Joeri 15y ago
I feel that windows phone is more realistic in its assumptions of how tiny and dense content can be and remain usable, but that's probably because i don't have perfect vision. I also think the chromeless look is more future-oriented, because it won't look dated as quickly. The iOS look already seems dated to me (perhaps because i used a mac for years before i saw iOS). Oh, and the app-centric model of iOS and Android is in my opinion a design flaw. A humane design shouldn't organize based on apps but based on tasks, and those tasks shouldn't get equal visibility an an icon grid.

pilgrim689 15y ago

From what I can tell as a WP7 user, the Facebook app's navigation takes up more space than other apps. Those "tabs" that look a bit big are not usually "dead space". In Microsoft-developed apps (Office and Music, for example), the tab titles slide up and away as you go through vertical content. So all that's left is the logo at the top. I've been using a LG Optimus for a year now, and I've never felt that the interface was cramped, so maybe it just looks odd to a non-user.

farnsworth 15y ago
> the tab titles slide up and away as you go through vertical content. So all that's left is the logo at the top. Ah, that makes a lot of sense. I figured it wasn't fair to judge a UI by a couple static screenshots. But at first glance it does look strange.

thought_alarm 15y ago

Microsoft needs apps and developers so they can stop getting so much negative press about the lack of apps and developers. But in order for Microsft to really be successful they need to get support from the carriers, and historically that's something they've failed to understand. Most of the market is made up of people who walk into a carrier store, ask for a phone that does the email and stuff, and walk out with a Samsung model they've never heard of. Microsoft needs these people to walk out of the store with a Windows Phone (they've never heard of before). But the carriers control the whole process. The carriers therefore demand control over the hardware and software, and the successful manufacturers give it to them. Nokia understands this very well, but it doesn't seem like Microsoft is giving them the freedom they need to make the carriers happy. If Microsoft goes into this trying to compete with Apple they're going to fail because every single carrier will be against them. To succeed, they need to forget about Apple and start competing with Samsung, LG, HTC, Motorola, and RIM. Ultimately, that means creating software that is less appealing to the tech community, and more appealing to the carriers. Give the carriers something that Samsung can't, on a device that looks good next to a poster of an iPhone, and they'll have something big. Then the apps and developers will follow.

underwater 15y ago
Windows 8 for ARM will lack the classics desktop and also run WP7 apps. In appearance it looks very similar to the phone OS. It makes sense that it will be the next step for their mobile platform. I don't see how this makes WP7 a dead end. Even the naming indicates that the core Windows product and mobile version are related and intended to evolve together.

underwater 15y ago

I have a Windows Phone. The Facebook app (disclaimer: I'm an employee) is quite nice despite missing some features I want. It is representative of the Metro "design language". In everyday use it doesn't feel like wasted space. It's hard to describe without using but the layout uses lots of vertical scrolling and the space to the left and right is usually a continuation of the current screent that shows related data (in the case of the Facebook app you swipe from newsfeed to a list of your photos then messages). This is very different to the static screens popular on iOS, and feels really nice to interact with. The problem Microsoft faces is that the unique design of Metro excludes the possibility of a port of existing mobile apps. Apps need to be designed from scratch using native code - embedded web views won't cut it - which is expensive to do.

TazeTSchnitzel 15y ago
The same is true of Windows 8, it also requires everyone to create new Metro-based designs for their apps. Heck, it doesn't allow the traditional Win32 APIs. It might explain why the Windows 8 Beta store is basically empty.
- cooldeal 15y ago
  >It might explain why the Windows 8 Beta store is basically empty. What? There are better quality apps for Windows 8 beta than Android tablet apps for my ICS tablet.
  - nosht 15y ago
    Out of curiosity, could you name some?

tomjen3 15y ago

More choice is not necessarily good. It means higher cost of development and therefore less apps.