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John Williams’ Butcher’s Crossing is an incredible story about buffalo hunters. If half of it is true it’s tragic. The sheer numbers; the depth of destruction f

John Williams’ Butcher’s Crossing is an incredible story about buffalo hunters. If half of it is true it’s tragic. The sheer numbers; the depth of destruction for the profit of a hide. It boggles the mind that we did this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butcher's_Crossing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butcher's_Crossing (Off-topic, but Williams is best known for Stoner, a truly beautiful work that you should read immediately if you haven’t already.)

block_dagger 3y ago
One of thousands of species homo sapiens has slaughtered mindlessly. We’re real special.
- II2II 3y ago
  From my understanding, it was more intentional than mindless. The article suggests that the extermination of the bison went hand in hand with the destruction of aboriginal societies. The nomadic bison were also problematic for expansion, affecting both agriculture and the railway. This was not a case of, "oh, there's money to be made off of their hides. Whoops! Where did all of the bison go." The reason why so many people take a stance against certain types of development goes well beyond unintentional consequences. It is because many of those consequences were intended to serve a particular agenda.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - cyberax 3y ago
    > This was not a case of, "oh, there's money to be made off of their hides. Whoops! Where did all of the bison go." This actually was exactly the case. The bison population collapsed within just _two_ years (1881-1883). In 1883 hunters were waiting for the bison that never came. As for railroads, the first trans-continental railroad was finished in 1869, and smaller railroads existed before that. Here's a nice overview article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0190052818300087 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019005281...
    - philwelch 3y ago
      As another point of reference, the last Comanche band surrendered and moved onto the reservations in 1875.
      - morelisp 3y ago
        This is a major section of the documentary.
    - polartx 3y ago
      It has always been my understanding that the near extermination of the American buffalo never had to do with over hunting. Every bit of industry during that era was centered around westward expansion. The biggest deterrent to expansion was the presence of American Indians (literally in the form of attack or sabotage of the transcontinental railroad construction, or psychological discouragement of settlers). There’s no delicate way to put it: exterminating buffalo was the safest, most cost-effective way to mitigate the American Indian threat against westward expansion. Since American Indian tribes weren’t agriculturally equipped to sustain themselves, especially through winters, reduction of buffalo along the overland expansion routes practically guaranteed the reduction of attacks against settlers and railroad workers. Hiring people to shoot buffalo was orders of magnitude easier and cheaper (and safer) than hiring and maintaining an army to fight Indians. Plus a Buffalo heards natural response to threat is either to run, or form a tight circle (you could say _that_ adaptation never counted on the invention of gunpowder). All that is to say, extinction of the buffalo was not the consequence of insatiable bloodlust for killing animals, as much as it was an objective in order to achieve unencumbered expansion and sustain the economic machine that was fueling it.
barrenko 3y ago
Love a spontaneous book rec. Thanks!
echelon_musk 3y ago
If in doubt, this picture is a clear piece of evidence: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Bison_skull_pile_edit_2.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Bison_sk...
- cyberax 3y ago
  [flagged]
PretzelPirate 3y ago
The numbers don't seem large at all compared to how many animals we slaughter per year for meat. Just like the buffalo hide, we don't need that meat to survive, it's a luxury.
acdanger 3y ago
Also made into a 2022 movie starring Nicholas Cage.
idontwantthis 3y ago
It was a deliberate act of genocide not just for profit. Read Empire of the Summer Moon to learn about why the Middle of North America was largely unsettled by Europeans for 350 years.
- cyberax 3y ago
  > Middle of North America was largely unsettled by Europeans for 350 years. Easy. Why would you settle there when a much better Eastern coast is available? The US non-Native population in 1800 was less than 6 million. For comparison, the UK was 10 million according to the 1801 census.
  - idontwantthis 3y ago
    I mean sure. Or you can look up a really interesting feature of American history that is not widely known. The Comanche Empire commanded an incredible amount of space with only 10s of thousands of people.
    - cyberax 3y ago
      It's pretty widely known. But what does it have to do with the question from the grandposter?
cyberax 3y ago
A general rule, when you find a "beautiful work", it usually is trying to sell you a story that seriously lacks in historical detail. There are exceptions, but they are rare. Regarding bison, it's likely that the final blow was not from overhunting, but from habitat encroachment that constrained their migratory patterns. This in turn started an epidemic of tick-borne disease, that resulted in a total collapse of their population within just 2 years (1881-1883). There's a really nice overview article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0190052818300087 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019005281...
- Mistletoe 3y ago
  Stoner is a fictional campus novel about a college professor…all beautiful works aren’t aiming for historical detail.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    Fiction requires a suspension of disbelief- that a certain person is real, or that certain things have happened, etc. Good fiction asks its audience to accept things that don't require special knowledge. Bad (historical) fiction presents false things in such a way that the audience accepts them without realizing that is is part of the fictional narrative, because they lack the specialized knowledge to understand when artistic liberties have been taken. Since the audience is already in a state of suspended disbelief, they aren't prepared to be skeptical of what is presented as real but is not. I have a similar quibble with American Gods. Several times I've seen people parrot ideas from the story that sounded like one of many historical facts but were actually very wrong, such as the background of Easter. Edit: I may have been overly harsh with the use of the word "Bad". They're good stories in their own rights, but this particular bone has been stuck in my craw for a long time.
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    Stoner is a great book. It's not "historical fiction".
- morelisp 3y ago
  "Overhunting" vs. "undermanagement" feels like a distinction without a difference outside a small circle of purely scientific inquiry.
billfruit 3y ago
Also recommend Francis Parkman's, "Oregon Trail", such a life of adventure combined with the ability to turn out sublime prose. A better record of the time than any video footage could ever have achieved.
therealdrag0 3y ago
I’ve been thinking about rereading Stoner. Read it a few years ago and loved it.

block_dagger 3y ago

One of thousands of species homo sapiens has slaughtered mindlessly. We’re real special.

II2II 3y ago
From my understanding, it was more intentional than mindless. The article suggests that the extermination of the bison went hand in hand with the destruction of aboriginal societies. The nomadic bison were also problematic for expansion, affecting both agriculture and the railway. This was not a case of, "oh, there's money to be made off of their hides. Whoops! Where did all of the bison go." The reason why so many people take a stance against certain types of development goes well beyond unintentional consequences. It is because many of those consequences were intended to serve a particular agenda.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- cyberax 3y ago
  > This was not a case of, "oh, there's money to be made off of their hides. Whoops! Where did all of the bison go." This actually was exactly the case. The bison population collapsed within just _two_ years (1881-1883). In 1883 hunters were waiting for the bison that never came. As for railroads, the first trans-continental railroad was finished in 1869, and smaller railroads existed before that. Here's a nice overview article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0190052818300087 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019005281...
  - philwelch 3y ago
    As another point of reference, the last Comanche band surrendered and moved onto the reservations in 1875.
    - morelisp 3y ago
      This is a major section of the documentary.
  - polartx 3y ago
    It has always been my understanding that the near extermination of the American buffalo never had to do with over hunting. Every bit of industry during that era was centered around westward expansion. The biggest deterrent to expansion was the presence of American Indians (literally in the form of attack or sabotage of the transcontinental railroad construction, or psychological discouragement of settlers). There’s no delicate way to put it: exterminating buffalo was the safest, most cost-effective way to mitigate the American Indian threat against westward expansion. Since American Indian tribes weren’t agriculturally equipped to sustain themselves, especially through winters, reduction of buffalo along the overland expansion routes practically guaranteed the reduction of attacks against settlers and railroad workers. Hiring people to shoot buffalo was orders of magnitude easier and cheaper (and safer) than hiring and maintaining an army to fight Indians. Plus a Buffalo heards natural response to threat is either to run, or form a tight circle (you could say _that_ adaptation never counted on the invention of gunpowder). All that is to say, extinction of the buffalo was not the consequence of insatiable bloodlust for killing animals, as much as it was an objective in order to achieve unencumbered expansion and sustain the economic machine that was fueling it.

barrenko 3y ago

Love a spontaneous book rec. Thanks!

echelon_musk 3y ago

If in doubt, this picture is a clear piece of evidence: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Bison_skull_pile_edit_2.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Bison_sk...

cyberax 3y ago
[flagged]

PretzelPirate 3y ago

The numbers don't seem large at all compared to how many animals we slaughter per year for meat. Just like the buffalo hide, we don't need that meat to survive, it's a luxury.

acdanger 3y ago

Also made into a 2022 movie starring Nicholas Cage.

idontwantthis 3y ago

It was a deliberate act of genocide not just for profit. Read Empire of the Summer Moon to learn about why the Middle of North America was largely unsettled by Europeans for 350 years.

cyberax 3y ago
> Middle of North America was largely unsettled by Europeans for 350 years. Easy. Why would you settle there when a much better Eastern coast is available? The US non-Native population in 1800 was less than 6 million. For comparison, the UK was 10 million according to the 1801 census.
- idontwantthis 3y ago
  I mean sure. Or you can look up a really interesting feature of American history that is not widely known. The Comanche Empire commanded an incredible amount of space with only 10s of thousands of people.
  - cyberax 3y ago
    It's pretty widely known. But what does it have to do with the question from the grandposter?

cyberax 3y ago

A general rule, when you find a "beautiful work", it usually is trying to sell you a story that seriously lacks in historical detail. There are exceptions, but they are rare. Regarding bison, it's likely that the final blow was not from overhunting, but from habitat encroachment that constrained their migratory patterns. This in turn started an epidemic of tick-borne disease, that resulted in a total collapse of their population within just 2 years (1881-1883). There's a really nice overview article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0190052818300087 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019005281...

Mistletoe 3y ago
Stoner is a fictional campus novel about a college professor…all beautiful works aren’t aiming for historical detail.
- zdragnar 3y ago
  Fiction requires a suspension of disbelief- that a certain person is real, or that certain things have happened, etc. Good fiction asks its audience to accept things that don't require special knowledge. Bad (historical) fiction presents false things in such a way that the audience accepts them without realizing that is is part of the fictional narrative, because they lack the specialized knowledge to understand when artistic liberties have been taken. Since the audience is already in a state of suspended disbelief, they aren't prepared to be skeptical of what is presented as real but is not. I have a similar quibble with American Gods. Several times I've seen people parrot ideas from the story that sounded like one of many historical facts but were actually very wrong, such as the background of Easter. Edit: I may have been overly harsh with the use of the word "Bad". They're good stories in their own rights, but this particular bone has been stuck in my craw for a long time.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  Stoner is a great book. It's not "historical fiction".
morelisp 3y ago
"Overhunting" vs. "undermanagement" feels like a distinction without a difference outside a small circle of purely scientific inquiry.

billfruit 3y ago

Also recommend Francis Parkman's, "Oregon Trail", such a life of adventure combined with the ability to turn out sublime prose. A better record of the time than any video footage could ever have achieved.

therealdrag0 3y ago

I’ve been thinking about rereading Stoner. Read it a few years ago and loved it.