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I used to like watching the Special forces selection process TV shows. They would claim that mostly people failed due to mental fortitude. The problem was repea

I used to like watching the Special forces selection process TV shows. They would claim that mostly people failed due to mental fortitude. The problem was repeatedly in these shows you would see people who weren't fit enough, whose muscles were not capable of the physical strength and stamina necessary to push like this. Many had trained very hard and were in very good shape but they just couldn't sustain it in the cold. These peoples bodies broke down too fast. Mental fortitude only seemed to come into it when you got down to the final few, 90% of people their bodies failed before they got to the point where mental fortitude mattered. I can well believe there are multiple factors that goes into being able to make it through such a test or being very fast. We just don't understand these genetic factors yet.

onetimeuse92304 3y ago
Yes, the mental fortitude is much overblown aspect. Yes, there is this thing as mental fortitude and you can even train it to persist to run hard, especially when you "kick" at the end of a race. But this only helps to a very small degree, the most of the result is due to more mundane aspects like your experience with running, your running efficiency, your aerobic capacity, your additional fat you are carrying with you, whether you have been running regularly recently, etc. I am regular runner (10 miles every morning). If I have an injury and are out of running for two months, I will have very hard time at the same speed and duration as before the injury and no mental fortitude will help me get the same result come race time. My mental fortitude counts for less than my last two months of running history. Even just a tiny bit of experience with running can dramatically improve your results. And that is not necessarily by improving your fitness. I remember when I started running I would get large increases in results every single day. I was very proud of myself until somebody told me this is normal and has nothing to do with my fitness -- my brain is getting rewired to coordinate my movements better and this helps running efficiency. Another important aspect of running you learn within first days is how it feels to be running at a sustainable pace. If you don't have any experience you are very likely to run too fast, accumulate lactate and be unable to finish the distance or have to slow down considerably. Because you don't have any idea how hard is appropriate for the challenge and your ability. And one more argument against mental fortitude. I think it has very little value the better you are at running. The better you are at running the closer you run to your physical limits and once you understand it, the brain alone cannot make you run faster if your body simply is not able to produce required output. If you observer Eliud Kipchoge, for example, beating yet another marathon record, you will notice he is feeling good and smiling throughout the race and at the finish line. Yes, there is probably some pain and discomfort but really, he is just executing a meticulously prepared plan. The work has already been done and he can't run faster than his ability and he knows is ability to perfection. He knows if he runs even a tiny bit faster than he should, it will actually put him above his ability and produce a slower result. There is maybe last couple miles where he is judging his reservers and decides whether to run a tiny bit faster or stay at his plan and that's about it. I had to use mental fortitude to finish my first marathon (when my body cut the power at 20 miles), but that's just because I was undertrained and unprepared. Now when I run I know perfectly the pace I need to keep to finish the race and there isn't temptation to "push it" because I know if I do this it will produce a worse result. (yes, I know running long distance like 5k-42.2k is very different from sprinting. I am just an amateur who runs a lot who is also a nerd and want to understand a lot about everything I do.)
- ImPleadThe5th 3y ago
  > 10 miles every morning Holy cow! That's pretty impressive, I run only like 35 miles a week during the peak of my marathon raining blocks.
  - onetimeuse92304 3y ago
    It is less impressive than you think. I run slow all the time (zone 1/zone 2) and only very occasionally do tempo/threshold/intervals. I only add those in my marathon training block. The distance is only one factor, the other factor is intensity. If you keep intensity low you can increase the volume a lot. Most untrained people get their heart rate up to zone 2 by just walking a little faster or in more difficult terrain. But they can easily walk fast for an hour or two. The only difference is that I have to be running to get to the same level of exertion. My runs are all easy and enjoyable and I don't have to fight myself to go out and I feel perfectly fine right after the run. I run 10 miles because that's about 1h 15-20 minutes which is the most I can pack into my busy morning. I am using that time to rethink some stuff, listen to the news or audiobooks so not all time is lost. An interesting feature of running is that if you do it correctly you can be quickly progressing to doing things that couple of months ago you thought impossible. For example, what once was a very strenuous run was an easy stroll couple months later, if I did things correctly inbetween. Another example, for years I had trouble with my Achilles tendon which would flare up every time I reached particular weekly mileage (about 20-30 miles). For many years I thought I am never going to be good at this, but then I got an advice from my physiotherapist to do some strength training and calisthenics targeting my Achilles and my problems suddenly went away. From then on I understood it is all about problem solving and I am a nerd.
  - chewz 3y ago
    >> 0 miles every morning > Holy cow! That's pretty impressive It might be also a reason for not making any progress..
- wjholden 3y ago
  Your observation on neurological efficiency generalizes to all physical activities. If you practiced pull-ups every day, you would become very efficient at pull-ups and possibly double the number you can do. At the same time, it isn't impossible for seemingly related measurements of strength (such as the biceps curl and deadlift) to get worse as your body "overfits" its adaptation to the pull-ups.
vjk800 3y ago
It's much easier to maintain mental fortitude if your body is only 90% worn down instead of 99%.
orthoxerox 3y ago
Except a 200m sprint is over before you even tap into your stamina. It certainly takes serious mental fortitude to stay several hours on the racetrack, doing your 200m sprint again and again, trying to perfect every aspect, but if you can't perfect one of them due to your natural limitations, you aren't becoming a champion runner.
Beijinger 3y ago
Reminds me of the movie Gattaca https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/ Anton Freeman : Vincent! How are you doing this Vincent? How have you done any of this? We have to go back. Vincent : It's too late for that. We're closer to the other side. Anton Freeman : What other side? You wanna drown us both? Vincent : You wanna know how I did it? This is how I did it Anton. I never saved anything for the swim back. Vincent : There's no gene for fate.
- ReactiveJelly 3y ago
  "There's no gene for selection bias" What a goofy moral. John Henry beat a machine once, died, and then was immediately replaced with 1,000 faster machines. Maybe we should have asked why nobody fought for John Henry to retire with a pension.

onetimeuse92304 3y ago

Yes, the mental fortitude is much overblown aspect. Yes, there is this thing as mental fortitude and you can even train it to persist to run hard, especially when you "kick" at the end of a race. But this only helps to a very small degree, the most of the result is due to more mundane aspects like your experience with running, your running efficiency, your aerobic capacity, your additional fat you are carrying with you, whether you have been running regularly recently, etc. I am regular runner (10 miles every morning). If I have an injury and are out of running for two months, I will have very hard time at the same speed and duration as before the injury and no mental fortitude will help me get the same result come race time. My mental fortitude counts for less than my last two months of running history. Even just a tiny bit of experience with running can dramatically improve your results. And that is not necessarily by improving your fitness. I remember when I started running I would get large increases in results every single day. I was very proud of myself until somebody told me this is normal and has nothing to do with my fitness -- my brain is getting rewired to coordinate my movements better and this helps running efficiency. Another important aspect of running you learn within first days is how it feels to be running at a sustainable pace. If you don't have any experience you are very likely to run too fast, accumulate lactate and be unable to finish the distance or have to slow down considerably. Because you don't have any idea how hard is appropriate for the challenge and your ability. And one more argument against mental fortitude. I think it has very little value the better you are at running. The better you are at running the closer you run to your physical limits and once you understand it, the brain alone cannot make you run faster if your body simply is not able to produce required output. If you observer Eliud Kipchoge, for example, beating yet another marathon record, you will notice he is feeling good and smiling throughout the race and at the finish line. Yes, there is probably some pain and discomfort but really, he is just executing a meticulously prepared plan. The work has already been done and he can't run faster than his ability and he knows is ability to perfection. He knows if he runs even a tiny bit faster than he should, it will actually put him above his ability and produce a slower result. There is maybe last couple miles where he is judging his reservers and decides whether to run a tiny bit faster or stay at his plan and that's about it. I had to use mental fortitude to finish my first marathon (when my body cut the power at 20 miles), but that's just because I was undertrained and unprepared. Now when I run I know perfectly the pace I need to keep to finish the race and there isn't temptation to "push it" because I know if I do this it will produce a worse result. (yes, I know running long distance like 5k-42.2k is very different from sprinting. I am just an amateur who runs a lot who is also a nerd and want to understand a lot about everything I do.)

ImPleadThe5th 3y ago
> 10 miles every morning Holy cow! That's pretty impressive, I run only like 35 miles a week during the peak of my marathon raining blocks.
- onetimeuse92304 3y ago
  It is less impressive than you think. I run slow all the time (zone 1/zone 2) and only very occasionally do tempo/threshold/intervals. I only add those in my marathon training block. The distance is only one factor, the other factor is intensity. If you keep intensity low you can increase the volume a lot. Most untrained people get their heart rate up to zone 2 by just walking a little faster or in more difficult terrain. But they can easily walk fast for an hour or two. The only difference is that I have to be running to get to the same level of exertion. My runs are all easy and enjoyable and I don't have to fight myself to go out and I feel perfectly fine right after the run. I run 10 miles because that's about 1h 15-20 minutes which is the most I can pack into my busy morning. I am using that time to rethink some stuff, listen to the news or audiobooks so not all time is lost. An interesting feature of running is that if you do it correctly you can be quickly progressing to doing things that couple of months ago you thought impossible. For example, what once was a very strenuous run was an easy stroll couple months later, if I did things correctly inbetween. Another example, for years I had trouble with my Achilles tendon which would flare up every time I reached particular weekly mileage (about 20-30 miles). For many years I thought I am never going to be good at this, but then I got an advice from my physiotherapist to do some strength training and calisthenics targeting my Achilles and my problems suddenly went away. From then on I understood it is all about problem solving and I am a nerd.
- chewz 3y ago
  >> 0 miles every morning > Holy cow! That's pretty impressive It might be also a reason for not making any progress..
wjholden 3y ago
Your observation on neurological efficiency generalizes to all physical activities. If you practiced pull-ups every day, you would become very efficient at pull-ups and possibly double the number you can do. At the same time, it isn't impossible for seemingly related measurements of strength (such as the biceps curl and deadlift) to get worse as your body "overfits" its adaptation to the pull-ups.

vjk800 3y ago

It's much easier to maintain mental fortitude if your body is only 90% worn down instead of 99%.

orthoxerox 3y ago

Except a 200m sprint is over before you even tap into your stamina. It certainly takes serious mental fortitude to stay several hours on the racetrack, doing your 200m sprint again and again, trying to perfect every aspect, but if you can't perfect one of them due to your natural limitations, you aren't becoming a champion runner.

Beijinger 3y ago

Reminds me of the movie Gattaca https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/ Anton Freeman : Vincent! How are you doing this Vincent? How have you done any of this? We have to go back. Vincent : It's too late for that. We're closer to the other side. Anton Freeman : What other side? You wanna drown us both? Vincent : You wanna know how I did it? This is how I did it Anton. I never saved anything for the swim back. Vincent : There's no gene for fate.

ReactiveJelly 3y ago
"There's no gene for selection bias" What a goofy moral. John Henry beat a machine once, died, and then was immediately replaced with 1,000 faster machines. Maybe we should have asked why nobody fought for John Henry to retire with a pension.