4 ms·

Panopticon

33 points by optimalsolver 3y ago

hkon 3y ago
Yes, cellphones am I right
- snvzz 3y ago
  >Track your position and send it to the network >Bundle proprietary code that can be turned on remotely to record / stream audio and video There's something to that claim.
  - ok_dad 3y ago
    Yea, one unnamed TLA could turn on just about any cell phone (flip phone era) if they wanted to, remotely, in at least 2005 or so. I wonder what they can do today!
tannedNerd 3y ago
Sometimes I wonder how things like pop up to the front page with basically zero discussion. I would have thought the op would have at least made a comment as to why they decided to post it. Commentary on current surveillance society or just interested in the style of buildings (mainly prisons) this created in 1800s.
- squigglydonut 3y ago
  I think it's with age :) you are seeing this. I remember when I first discovered this concept I was fascinated.
- Jiocus 3y ago
  You might not see it right now, but seemingly random bits of knowledge can come up useful later. I once wrote a IoT monitoring software to watch closed-source locked down devices. My view of these devices was antagonistic, and it was my responsibility to keep them from being abused by our end users. I named my project panopticon inspired by the original idea. On the other hand, I don't think it's application on humans is ethical nor effective, but for devices, maybe.
motohagiography 3y ago
Panopticon techniques are real, they work on multiple levels, and there are bad people who organize to use them. The dignity of your humanity is not guaranteed in this world (or free), and it requires conscious vigilence to develop it and preserve it. We legit worry that the internet has become a panopticon and our tech is devouring our civilizations, but it also gave us the most devastating antidote to it that no tyranny can or has ever survived. It's one word, every machination is powerless against it, and to forever secure our humanity I will share it here by example: lol.
qingcharles 3y ago
This one was in use until very, very recently: https://www.injusticewatch.org/news/prisons-and-jails/2020/stateville-roundhouse-covid/ https://www.injusticewatch.org/news/prisons-and-jails/2020/s... (F-House at Stateville Correctional Center, the last panopticon-style prison building in the U.S.) I think it is closed again. When I was in there this year I believe the other inmates were saying it is finally closed for good. Edit: note, the alternatives are not better. The conditions I was held in were far worse. (there are zero photos of the inside of the supermax section I was held in)
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
pjot 3y ago
The animation[0] describing its construction was equal parts interesting and terrifying. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panopticon_Animation_by_Myles_Zhang.webmhd.webm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panopticon_Animation_by...
rt4mn 3y ago
This is probably going to be a bit of a mini rant, been thinking bout this for a while (10 years in fact). > Although it is physically impossible for the single guard to observe all the inmates' cells at once, the fact that the inmates cannot know when they are being watched motivates them to act as though they are all being watched at all times. They are effectively compelled to self-regulation. This is the fundamental idea of the Panopticon, and you see it baked into parts of the modern surveillance State as well. But outside of some workplace and carceral contexts i don't think its actually the direction we are headed. The spooks want the power to actually use the data surveillance gives them, they are not really interested in social control as far as I can tell. At least not yet. True, most of the data hoovered up by the "Intelligence community" is almost never actually looked at with human eyes, but they are actively trying to work towards building a system whereby all that data is still analyzed and used, or quickly searched with just the right keywords. The panopticon is useful for illustrating one of the many side dangers of surveillance (namely that it instills fear and stifles expression) but it does not cut to the core issue: Mass surveillance drastically upsets the power balance between the government and the governed.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
  China's social credit system is explicitly about being able to use surveillance technologies for social control. I suspect these approaches will only grow and mature in authoritarian states. In nominally free states like the US, this tech will also seep into society via private but essential industries like credit scores, access to rentals, etc., and then eventually by the government itself for things like passports, access to government aid, etc. This tech is just too tempting not to be used by the already powerful to become more powerful.
- m463 3y ago
  > act as though they are all being watched at all times in tech surveillance, the idea is that you CAN be watched all the time. Information gleaned is added to a dossier, which can be reviewed later. I think this kind of stuff causes a terrible conformance.
huytersd 3y ago
Religion is a panopticon
PlunderBunny 3y ago
It seems obvious to me (*) why a panopticon prison (at least, the type with no doors on the cells) doesn’t work - there’s no easy way to exert control. As soon as prisoners start misbehaving, you need more guards, far more so than a ‘normal’ prison would require. Without a lot of stairs and ladders, the guards can’t move to problem areas easily, and stairs/ladders are problem points even in conventional prisons. Furthermore, the game theory-like idea that the prisoners will work within the system is ruined by the fact that the guard can’t possibly catalogue multiple incidents occurring simultaneously. It seems very naive. Anyone that has tried to keep a classroom of young school children quiet/on task would know this I think. (Whenever something is ‘obvious’ to me, I take it as a sign that I’m not understanding it fully).
uslic001 3y ago
New song by Peter Gabriel close to this Panopticom https://youtu.be/VMJGV7GWC5I?si=Bj8sYDlAk46Jn_-N https://youtu.be/VMJGV7GWC5I?si=Bj8sYDlAk46Jn_-N

Panopticon

33 points by optimalsolver 3y ago

hkon 3y ago

Yes, cellphones am I right

snvzz 3y ago
>Track your position and send it to the network >Bundle proprietary code that can be turned on remotely to record / stream audio and video There's something to that claim.
- ok_dad 3y ago
  Yea, one unnamed TLA could turn on just about any cell phone (flip phone era) if they wanted to, remotely, in at least 2005 or so. I wonder what they can do today!

tannedNerd 3y ago

Sometimes I wonder how things like pop up to the front page with basically zero discussion. I would have thought the op would have at least made a comment as to why they decided to post it. Commentary on current surveillance society or just interested in the style of buildings (mainly prisons) this created in 1800s.

squigglydonut 3y ago
I think it's with age :) you are seeing this. I remember when I first discovered this concept I was fascinated.
Jiocus 3y ago
You might not see it right now, but seemingly random bits of knowledge can come up useful later. I once wrote a IoT monitoring software to watch closed-source locked down devices. My view of these devices was antagonistic, and it was my responsibility to keep them from being abused by our end users. I named my project panopticon inspired by the original idea. On the other hand, I don't think it's application on humans is ethical nor effective, but for devices, maybe.

motohagiography 3y ago

Panopticon techniques are real, they work on multiple levels, and there are bad people who organize to use them. The dignity of your humanity is not guaranteed in this world (or free), and it requires conscious vigilence to develop it and preserve it. We legit worry that the internet has become a panopticon and our tech is devouring our civilizations, but it also gave us the most devastating antidote to it that no tyranny can or has ever survived. It's one word, every machination is powerless against it, and to forever secure our humanity I will share it here by example: lol.

qingcharles 3y ago

This one was in use until very, very recently: https://www.injusticewatch.org/news/prisons-and-jails/2020/stateville-roundhouse-covid/ https://www.injusticewatch.org/news/prisons-and-jails/2020/s... (F-House at Stateville Correctional Center, the last panopticon-style prison building in the U.S.) I think it is closed again. When I was in there this year I believe the other inmates were saying it is finally closed for good. Edit: note, the alternatives are not better. The conditions I was held in were far worse. (there are zero photos of the inside of the supermax section I was held in)

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

pjot 3y ago

The animation[0] describing its construction was equal parts interesting and terrifying. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panopticon_Animation_by_Myles_Zhang.webmhd.webm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panopticon_Animation_by...

rt4mn 3y ago

This is probably going to be a bit of a mini rant, been thinking bout this for a while (10 years in fact). > Although it is physically impossible for the single guard to observe all the inmates' cells at once, the fact that the inmates cannot know when they are being watched motivates them to act as though they are all being watched at all times. They are effectively compelled to self-regulation. This is the fundamental idea of the Panopticon, and you see it baked into parts of the modern surveillance State as well. But outside of some workplace and carceral contexts i don't think its actually the direction we are headed. The spooks want the power to actually use the data surveillance gives them, they are not really interested in social control as far as I can tell. At least not yet. True, most of the data hoovered up by the "Intelligence community" is almost never actually looked at with human eyes, but they are actively trying to work towards building a system whereby all that data is still analyzed and used, or quickly searched with just the right keywords. The panopticon is useful for illustrating one of the many side dangers of surveillance (namely that it instills fear and stifles expression) but it does not cut to the core issue: Mass surveillance drastically upsets the power balance between the government and the governed.

Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
China's social credit system is explicitly about being able to use surveillance technologies for social control. I suspect these approaches will only grow and mature in authoritarian states. In nominally free states like the US, this tech will also seep into society via private but essential industries like credit scores, access to rentals, etc., and then eventually by the government itself for things like passports, access to government aid, etc. This tech is just too tempting not to be used by the already powerful to become more powerful.
m463 3y ago
> act as though they are all being watched at all times in tech surveillance, the idea is that you CAN be watched all the time. Information gleaned is added to a dossier, which can be reviewed later. I think this kind of stuff causes a terrible conformance.

huytersd 3y ago

Religion is a panopticon

PlunderBunny 3y ago

It seems obvious to me (*) why a panopticon prison (at least, the type with no doors on the cells) doesn’t work - there’s no easy way to exert control. As soon as prisoners start misbehaving, you need more guards, far more so than a ‘normal’ prison would require. Without a lot of stairs and ladders, the guards can’t move to problem areas easily, and stairs/ladders are problem points even in conventional prisons. Furthermore, the game theory-like idea that the prisoners will work within the system is ruined by the fact that the guard can’t possibly catalogue multiple incidents occurring simultaneously. It seems very naive. Anyone that has tried to keep a classroom of young school children quiet/on task would know this I think. (Whenever something is ‘obvious’ to me, I take it as a sign that I’m not understanding it fully).

uslic001 3y ago

New song by Peter Gabriel close to this Panopticom https://youtu.be/VMJGV7GWC5I?si=Bj8sYDlAk46Jn_-N https://youtu.be/VMJGV7GWC5I?si=Bj8sYDlAk46Jn_-N