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I know Americans get a justice boner imagining bad criminals getting raped in prison, but is it beneficial for society to put people with a history of violence

I know Americans get a justice boner imagining bad criminals getting raped in prison, but is it beneficial for society to put people with a history of violence through living hell then leave them with no job prospects and basically no real opportunities once they are released? Does that set the general welfare of the country up for more prosperity, peace, improvement? Is it really all that surprising all the unique problems the United States has disproportionate to its wealth?

CPLX 3y ago
No. It is wildly immoral to consider rape an acceptable outcome of any government action. This has been a simple answer to a simple question.
Analemma_ 3y ago
The prison system in the United States makes much more sense once you realize that its purpose is not to rehabilitate, or even to maintain public order, but to keep certain people (which means exactly what you imagine it means) locked up, cradle-to-grave. It's very good at that. (Remember the classic mantra, "the purpose of a system is what it does.")
- ssalka 3y ago
  There is also a lot of dependence on prison labor, recidivism is good for business. Technically, convicted felons are fair game for slavery and indentured servitude - it says it right there in the 13th amendment.
- drcongo 3y ago
  The purpose of the American prison system is to make a profit. It only makes sense when viewed through that lens.
Ancalagon 3y ago
No. The US has a lot of fucked up things about its Justice system that don’t make a lot of sense unless viewed from a lens of pure retribution.
- cm2187 3y ago
  I am always puzzled, there seems to be lots of people who seem to have decided that retribution is not the purpose of the justice system. It is the primary purpose of the justice system. Everything else (disuasion, redemption, reintegration, etc) comes as an secondary benefit/purpose. Now we can debate whether locking someone in a tiny concrete cell for 60 years is an appropriate form of retribution, or even whether it is more humane than a quick death. And certainly any violence in jail is unacceptable. The US system seems a bit absurd to me. But the european systems of extreme laxism seem equally absurd and ineffective.
  - alphager 3y ago
    It may seem absurd to you, but it's highly effective. Both general crime rates as well as recidivism are lower.
    - cm2187 3y ago
      By that logic the chinese system is even less forgiving and the homicide rate is even lower there. The justice system isn't the only factor that influence crime rate. Also if you never send your criminals to jail it's not surprising they don't show as recidivists. You end up in countries like France with criminals that have rap sheet of several pages and have never set foot in a jail. They operate in quasi impunity.
- swsdsailor 3y ago
  Yes. A lot of the social issues we have today point to needed overhauls of many institutions.
Towaway69 3y ago
There is a different take on prisons in Europe. The take there is to prepare people for reintegration into society while the English take is to punish. It's an interesting difference since prisons are actually there to punish but once the punishment has been served, the prisoner should have all equal chances to start again having learnt their lesson.
bitshiftfaced 3y ago
> I know Americans get a justice boner imagining bad criminals getting raped in prison, What an offensive stereotype to place Americans in general into this bucket.
- markoman 3y ago
  You're offended. Now, refute the characterization with cogent, rational arguments. Leaving off your own arguments and simply stating that you're affronted doesn't serve much of a point.
  - bitshiftfaced 3y ago
    The point it serves is to communicate an opposing perspective, one that says there's something wrong with stereotyping a whole nation of people by basically saying they lack the ability to empathize and are sadistic and cruel. > 91 Percent of Americans Support Criminal Justice Reform, ACLU Polling Finds https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/91-percent-americans-support-criminal-justice-reform-aclu-polling-finds https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/91-percent-americans-sup...
    - atmavatar 3y ago
      I think it's perfectly fair for an outside party to claim that the actions of a democratically-elected government represent the will of its citizens -- at least as an opening comment, surely. Though, it's true that there are a lot of reasons why the US government fails to accurately represent a majority of its citizens on many (perhaps even most!) issues. I might even argue that our political party and electoral systems are currently structured such that our "representatives" largely don't even have to care about the will of the US citizenry. But, I'd hardly expect everyone outside the US to understand that, particularly if they lived in one of the many first-world countries with better-functioning systems. Starting with that link as a rebuttal rather than a conversation-terminating "I am offended" response would have been more productive.
- sundaeofshock 3y ago
  As an American, it sure seems like a fair characterization. Many politicians are in favor of harsh incarnation conditions, and a majority of Americans seem to support this position.
deleted 3y ago
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CPLX 3y ago

No. It is wildly immoral to consider rape an acceptable outcome of any government action. This has been a simple answer to a simple question.

Analemma_ 3y ago

The prison system in the United States makes much more sense once you realize that its purpose is not to rehabilitate, or even to maintain public order, but to keep certain people (which means exactly what you imagine it means) locked up, cradle-to-grave. It's very good at that. (Remember the classic mantra, "the purpose of a system is what it does.")

ssalka 3y ago
There is also a lot of dependence on prison labor, recidivism is good for business. Technically, convicted felons are fair game for slavery and indentured servitude - it says it right there in the 13th amendment.
drcongo 3y ago
The purpose of the American prison system is to make a profit. It only makes sense when viewed through that lens.

Ancalagon 3y ago

No. The US has a lot of fucked up things about its Justice system that don’t make a lot of sense unless viewed from a lens of pure retribution.

cm2187 3y ago
I am always puzzled, there seems to be lots of people who seem to have decided that retribution is not the purpose of the justice system. It is the primary purpose of the justice system. Everything else (disuasion, redemption, reintegration, etc) comes as an secondary benefit/purpose. Now we can debate whether locking someone in a tiny concrete cell for 60 years is an appropriate form of retribution, or even whether it is more humane than a quick death. And certainly any violence in jail is unacceptable. The US system seems a bit absurd to me. But the european systems of extreme laxism seem equally absurd and ineffective.
- alphager 3y ago
  It may seem absurd to you, but it's highly effective. Both general crime rates as well as recidivism are lower.
  - cm2187 3y ago
    By that logic the chinese system is even less forgiving and the homicide rate is even lower there. The justice system isn't the only factor that influence crime rate. Also if you never send your criminals to jail it's not surprising they don't show as recidivists. You end up in countries like France with criminals that have rap sheet of several pages and have never set foot in a jail. They operate in quasi impunity.
swsdsailor 3y ago
Yes. A lot of the social issues we have today point to needed overhauls of many institutions.

Towaway69 3y ago

There is a different take on prisons in Europe. The take there is to prepare people for reintegration into society while the English take is to punish. It's an interesting difference since prisons are actually there to punish but once the punishment has been served, the prisoner should have all equal chances to start again having learnt their lesson.

bitshiftfaced 3y ago

> I know Americans get a justice boner imagining bad criminals getting raped in prison, What an offensive stereotype to place Americans in general into this bucket.

markoman 3y ago
You're offended. Now, refute the characterization with cogent, rational arguments. Leaving off your own arguments and simply stating that you're affronted doesn't serve much of a point.
- bitshiftfaced 3y ago
  The point it serves is to communicate an opposing perspective, one that says there's something wrong with stereotyping a whole nation of people by basically saying they lack the ability to empathize and are sadistic and cruel. > 91 Percent of Americans Support Criminal Justice Reform, ACLU Polling Finds https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/91-percent-americans-support-criminal-justice-reform-aclu-polling-finds https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/91-percent-americans-sup...
  - atmavatar 3y ago
    I think it's perfectly fair for an outside party to claim that the actions of a democratically-elected government represent the will of its citizens -- at least as an opening comment, surely. Though, it's true that there are a lot of reasons why the US government fails to accurately represent a majority of its citizens on many (perhaps even most!) issues. I might even argue that our political party and electoral systems are currently structured such that our "representatives" largely don't even have to care about the will of the US citizenry. But, I'd hardly expect everyone outside the US to understand that, particularly if they lived in one of the many first-world countries with better-functioning systems. Starting with that link as a rebuttal rather than a conversation-terminating "I am offended" response would have been more productive.
sundaeofshock 3y ago
As an American, it sure seems like a fair characterization. Many politicians are in favor of harsh incarnation conditions, and a majority of Americans seem to support this position.

deleted 3y ago

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