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In summary, salaries need to rise (and they are), and the tax system needs to raise its thresholds accordingly (and it hasn't yet?). Note that the increase in
by somewhereoutth 3y ago
In summary, salaries need to rise (and they are), and the tax system needs to raise its thresholds accordingly (and it hasn't yet?).
Note that the increase in housing costs has been largely driven by AirBnB etc, like much of the more desirable to tourists parts of Europe. Digital nomads (working remotely, almost by definition, and not getting paid that much in the grand scheme of things, again almost by definition) are somewhat incidental to all this, except as far as they might encourage local high skill job creation by some form of osmosis (e.g. bringing opportunities for locals to also work remotely though recommendation, and piquing the interest of outside companies in Portugal as a place to hire / do business).
- lm28469 3y ago> Digital nomads (working remotely, almost by definition, and not getting paid that much in the grand scheme of things, again almost by definition) a I don't think you know what you're talking about. Living in Portugal while remotely working for any semi decent tech company puts you in the top 10% earners easily
- quonn 3y agoCertainly. However the rest of the post is about right. Salaries in Portugal are exceptionally low and taxes are high and both make the country not competitive - were it not for the sunshine and beaches.
- seydor 3y ago"digital nomads" are normally looking for location arbitrage, so they are not high earners, normally cheap-skates. Remote workers might be more likely to create inequality, but seriously how many are they? If they create price pressure then it means there s very little housing stock in the first place.
- quonn 3y agoMy back of the envelope estimate is that the nomads make up around 1-4% of the Lisbon population. That‘s certainly not insignificant. On the other hand, the young Portuguese have been leaving the country since 2009. Millions of them earn salaries in central and northern Europe. They left without any nomads coming to Portugal. Shouldn‘t these millions benefiting from european freedom of movement justify a mere 20k nomads in Lisbon? edit: Maybe it‘s not millions but only half a million.
- seydor 3y ago> Shouldn‘t these millions benefiting from european freedom of movement justify a mere 20k nomads in Lisbon? Portugal is making very little money from its emigrants anyway. I doubt they have more than 100k nomads, i suppose most of them would live in the biggest cities, and while they make the housing problem worse, most likely the problem would exist without them because portugal has the same structural problems with other southern eu countries. (Plus nomads by definition move elsewhere over a short time)
- Podgajski 3y agoHave you ever met a truly wealthy person that wasn’t a cheapskate? How do you think they got rich in the first place?
- JALTU 3y agoRead, “The Millionaire Next Door”. And seriously, profligate spenders generally seem to have income sources that quickly replenish their coffers. Or they are owners and have those kinds of tax advantages. Or, they inherit. There is a generational shift in wealth going on.
- JetSpiegel 3y agohttps://www.pordata.pt/db/portugal/ambiente+de+consulta/tabela/5836926 https://www.pordata.pt/db/portugal/ambiente+de+consulta/tabe... Actually, for 2021, earning 40k€ per year puts you in the top 10%. 4 in 5 families earn less than 27k€. Less than 5000 families earn more than 250k€. Top 1% is 100k€. This is for a population of about 10 million.
- therealmarv 3y agoPortugal is broke, there is no easy solution, they need their taxes (actually even more than now).
- rafaelmn 3y agoShift burden from income tax -> property tax. My country (Croatia) has a similar issue and the finance minister even said he thinks this is the correct move but there's no "political will" to do this.
- quonn 3y agoIn Portugal far more people own houses than in other countries and these people have no interest in voting for such a policy.
- rafaelmn 3y agoSame thing as Croatia (realeatate investment is viewed as only safe investment and basically people's retirement savings). Economic situation (and mentality) is very similar - Portugals problem seems to be more extreme though since it's located in a more interesting area (closer to developed Europe).
- quonn 3y agoI heard some people are just starting to consider Croatia, EU integration is still happening, the Euro just arrived. Give it 10 years …
- rafaelmn 3y agoYeah it's already headed in that direction with realestate pricing. The only upside is that in Croatia you can pay <25% tax if you work as a contractor (up to 1M€ income per year) and there's a decent level of private healthcare available since medical tourism is a thing.
- 3y ago
- amadeuspagel 3y agoThere is a limited supply of apartments. If a digital nomad lives in one, then a native portuguese can't live there. This is basic math.
- withinboredom 3y agoYep! I was there recently for work and we decided to go on a walking tour given by a local who grew up there, arranged by a coworker who was from there. Our guide took us through one neighborhood and commented that this neighborhood used to be bustling all day and long into the night, but now it is 95% airbnb. During the winter, most of the houses are completely empty. It's effectively a dead neighborhood, but the architecture is neat. Just 15 years ago, you'd walk through the neighborhood and experience a thriving night market ... now it's just somewhere you walk through to get to the next place.
- quonn 3y agoThis has very little to do with nomads and everything with tourism. 15 years ago Lisbon was in terrible shape, mostly collapsing due to rent controls. And this is still the case to a degree. You have an enormous number of houses where the (older than, I think, 55) tenants pay 50 Euros per month that cannot be increased and the landlords pay more than that just in taxes and basic fees. So no renovation is done, everything is falling apart.
- JetSpiegel 3y agoThis is no longer true, the older rents were unfrozen by Assunção Cristas, about a decade ago. As a consequence, many older people were thrown out of their homes to make way for AirBnB, particularly in the touristy areas. The rent comtrols have been there for the better part of a century, but they were only a problem when tourism boomed, rent control cannot be a cause of shortages if it was in place before without problems.
- Podgajski 3y agoMove fast and break culture.
- cultofmetatron 3y ago> Digital nomads (working remotely, almost by definition, and not getting paid that much in the grand scheme of things what are you talking about?? to be a digital nomad, you have to spend significantly more to sustain traveling and the added expenses of short term rentals. I could cut my costs in half if I just stayed in one spot for a few months. A typical apartment is going to cost half of an equivalent airbnb and the cost of equipping a kitchen will be offset very quickly from the savings of being able to shop at supermarkets and preparing your food at home.
- seydor 3y ago> you have to spend significantly more to sustain traveling and the added expenses of short term rentals my understanding is that digital nomads pay LESS than they would in their home country by choosing cheap CoL countries
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- cultofmetatron 3y agocertain things are cheaper compared to what they were paying at home. but you're still going to be spending more than a local would for the same amenities. Case in point, I can spend $2400 for a basic 1 bedroom apartment in San Francisco or nyc or I can spend $1000 to live in a luxury villa in Bali or a nice furnished apartment in medellin colombia. so yes they are spending less. but they are hardly low income by any stretch.
- cactusplant7374 3y agoI live in Ecuador so I can't really say too much about other countries. However, a luxury rental in Ecuador isn't really a luxury rental at all. There is no noise proofing, random holes in the walls, and the house isn't vented properly. The people that built it just had no idea what they were doing. I don't really think you can compare third world accommodations to first world. It's not comparable. The quality isn't there.