4 ms·

"Under Britain’s draconian anti-terror laws, Murray had no right to a lawyer during his hour-long detention, and no right to remain silent. He was forced to pro

"Under Britain’s draconian anti-terror laws, Murray had no right to a lawyer during his hour-long detention, and no right to remain silent. He was forced to provide passwords for his electronic devices. " Is that true? How is that even legal? How the courts of a liberal democracy allow that?

throwaway4good 3y ago
It is standard when you are detained at a border crossing. Edit: I see he is an UK citizen and he was detained at Glasgow airport; I would think he has some rights there - I guess that’s why UK police had to use the terror laws - alternative would be to ask the Swiss (or wherever he was flying) to detain him.
Belopolye 3y ago
>How the courts of a liberal democracy allow that? The conclusion is that the United Kingdom is not a liberal democracy. The term I see thrown around is “electoral authoritarianism,” where elections may be free and fair but institutions don’t reflect liberal values. Maybe we’re discovering that democracy and liberal values don’t necessarily go hand-in-hand.
- MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
  Another term would be "Managed Democracy".
- edgyquant 3y ago
  Discovering? This was a main argument during the founding the United States and the reason it’s supposed to be a republic not a democracy.
  - Belopolye 3y ago
    If we’re being fair, it was a Republic where only land-owning, white, and Christian men were allowed to have representation in Congress. That system was never going to survive alongside immigration (driven by capital demanding cheaper foreign labor in the 1800s), the growth of middle-class and educated women, and the spread into the frontier.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - Sporktacular 3y ago
    Ugh, this again. They are not exclusive concepts. And the US constitution denotes both. It's not an accident that contemporary US Republicans have started repeating this talking point. The last Republican challenger to win the presidency (not re-election) by popular vote was George HW Bush 35 years ago. Expect to see less 'will of the people' talk from them in the years ahead. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/republicans-are-suddenly-afraid-democracy/616685/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/republican...
newZWhoDis 3y ago
I refuse to travel to the UK anymore because of their draconian laws. It’s never been a problem for me, but I don’t want to roll the dice. Luckily there’s not much worth seeing there anyways.
- throwaway4good 3y ago
  Most European countries have similar laws … we just don’t use them on white people …
  - einpoklum 3y ago
    It seems that people who serve the public against the political establishment, like Assange and Murray, are awarded with the title of honorary brown person.
- jjgreen 3y ago
  Very wise, I live here and would advise against visiting. It's like China without the interesting cuisine.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  > draconian laws Do we have a word for what used to be called draconian laws? Some countries still practice original-sense draconian laws and I don't want to conflate them with the not nearly as bad anti-due-process laws such as the ones here.
bvoq 3y ago
The UK is closer to South Africa than to Europe. It's corruption ridden to the top and 1 in 5 children live in food poverty despite it being the 5th richest country. The mismanagement of law and order is so obvious. Birmingham went bust, privatisation spurred energy bills, etc.
geraldhh 3y ago
Greetings from Brexit

throwaway4good 3y ago

It is standard when you are detained at a border crossing. Edit: I see he is an UK citizen and he was detained at Glasgow airport; I would think he has some rights there - I guess that’s why UK police had to use the terror laws - alternative would be to ask the Swiss (or wherever he was flying) to detain him.

Belopolye 3y ago

>How the courts of a liberal democracy allow that? The conclusion is that the United Kingdom is not a liberal democracy. The term I see thrown around is “electoral authoritarianism,” where elections may be free and fair but institutions don’t reflect liberal values. Maybe we’re discovering that democracy and liberal values don’t necessarily go hand-in-hand.

MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
Another term would be "Managed Democracy".
edgyquant 3y ago
Discovering? This was a main argument during the founding the United States and the reason it’s supposed to be a republic not a democracy.
- Belopolye 3y ago
  If we’re being fair, it was a Republic where only land-owning, white, and Christian men were allowed to have representation in Congress. That system was never going to survive alongside immigration (driven by capital demanding cheaper foreign labor in the 1800s), the growth of middle-class and educated women, and the spread into the frontier.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- Sporktacular 3y ago
  Ugh, this again. They are not exclusive concepts. And the US constitution denotes both. It's not an accident that contemporary US Republicans have started repeating this talking point. The last Republican challenger to win the presidency (not re-election) by popular vote was George HW Bush 35 years ago. Expect to see less 'will of the people' talk from them in the years ahead. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/republicans-are-suddenly-afraid-democracy/616685/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/republican...

newZWhoDis 3y ago

I refuse to travel to the UK anymore because of their draconian laws. It’s never been a problem for me, but I don’t want to roll the dice. Luckily there’s not much worth seeing there anyways.

throwaway4good 3y ago
Most European countries have similar laws … we just don’t use them on white people …
- einpoklum 3y ago
  It seems that people who serve the public against the political establishment, like Assange and Murray, are awarded with the title of honorary brown person.
jjgreen 3y ago
Very wise, I live here and would advise against visiting. It's like China without the interesting cuisine.
anonymouskimmer 3y ago
> draconian laws Do we have a word for what used to be called draconian laws? Some countries still practice original-sense draconian laws and I don't want to conflate them with the not nearly as bad anti-due-process laws such as the ones here.

bvoq 3y ago

The UK is closer to South Africa than to Europe. It's corruption ridden to the top and 1 in 5 children live in food poverty despite it being the 5th richest country. The mismanagement of law and order is so obvious. Birmingham went bust, privatisation spurred energy bills, etc.

geraldhh 3y ago

Greetings from Brexit