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> That's just your point of view, a point of view which results in helicopter parenting > They don't use reddit/etc so they aren't pumped full of hyperbolic p

> That's just your point of view, a point of view which results in helicopter parenting > They don't use reddit/etc so they aren't pumped full of hyperbolic propaganda about how dangerous walking in America is, and consequently, they're able to enjoy it just fine Here's some of the data and context that informs my opinion. I'm used to walking about 30-35Km a week in suburban Toronto. Close calls with cars happen on a weekly basis. I wear hi-viz clothing, look both ways, all that jazz. You know who doesn't look both ways? Cars making right turns. Pedestrian safety statistics published every year in my area very much support this viewpoint [0]. As for the risk involved, if again you look at actual statistics you will find that pedestrian deaths have been increasing sharply in North America with the advent of ever larger vehicles like lifted pickup trucks and SUV [1]. This is happening in spite of far fewer people choosing to walk these days [2]. As for the volume of car traffic, it's worse than ever in my area [3]. So, with actual data at hand, it does look like walking is rather more dangerous than it used to be. You can look up cycling statistics if you feel like. Hint: they are much worse. [0] https://www.york.ca/transportation/traffic/traffic-safety-program https://www.york.ca/transportation/traffic/traffic-safety-pr... [1] https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/pedestrians https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/pedes... [2] https://data.bikeleague.org/show-your-data/national-data/rates-of-biking-and-walking/#number-percent-of-people-walking-to-work https://data.bikeleague.org/show-your-data/national-data/rat... [3] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-most-congested-spots-1.6716662 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-most-congeste...

mcpackieh 3y ago
Most pedestrian result from pedestrians doing stupid things, like walking in the middle of the road at night wearing black while drunk. 77% of pedestrian deaths occur at night: https://www.vox.com/23784549/pedestrian-deaths-traffic-safety-fatalities-governors-association https://www.vox.com/23784549/pedestrian-deaths-traffic-safet... 60% of pedestrian deaths occur on high-capacity urban roads: https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/i... The most dangerous roads are multilane roads e.g. highways: "among 60 roads that had the most pedestrian deaths during 2001-2016, all were roads with adjacent commercial retail space, nearly all were multilane roads" https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/i... 30% of pedestrian deaths involve a drunk pedestrian: "About one out of three (30%) involved a pedestrian with a BAC of at least 0.08 g/dL.7" https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/i... Men account for 70% of pedestrian deaths, because men are more inclined to have a severe disregard for their own safety: https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/males-and-females https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/males... If you simply choose to follow basic common sense, then these population-level statistics don't represent the actual risk to yourself. You're getting yourself freaked out by numbers that don't actually apply to you (or shouldn't if you have any sense.)
- david-gpu 3y ago
  > Most pedestrian result from pedestrians doing stupid things like walking in the middle of the road at night wearing black while drunk According to the local statistics I have [0], in something like 75% of car collisions the pedestrian had the right of way, and the immense majority of them occur at intersections rather than in the middle of the road. > 60% of pedestrian deaths occur on high-capacity urban roads And how does that compare to the amount of walking that happens on one area vs the other? > Men account for 70% of pedestrian deaths, because men are more inclined to have a severe disregard for their own safety What percentage of pedestrian Km are walked by men vs women? > You're getting yourself freaked out by numbers that don't actually apply to you (or shouldn't if you have any sense.) I am concerned for my safety because I actually walk and have noticed how often drivers don't even see me, in spite of wearing hi viz clothing. The statistics merely confirm what the risk I already noticed empirically: what sort of vehicles are dangerous to pedestrians (SUVs and pickups), where the danger occurs (busy intersections) and whose fault it is (predominantly drivers). Finally, it there is an inherent contradiction in the simplistic narrative that people barely walk anymore "even though nothing has changed": there is far more car traffic now precisely because people barely walk anymore. Walking doesn't kill, cars kill, so more traffic means more dangerous streets. It is rather obvious. [0] https://www.york.ca/transportation/traffic/traffic-safety-program https://www.york.ca/transportation/traffic/traffic-safety-pr...
- Mawr 3y ago
  > Most pedestrian result from pedestrians doing stupid things, like walking in the middle of the road at night wearing black while drunk. A ridiculous notion not supported by anything you've linked. Somehow it's the most vulnerable road users that are at fault? If that's the case, then why are pedestrian death rates in the US so bad compared to Europe? Do european pedestrians do fewer stupid things? Do they drink less? > The most dangerous roads are multilane roads e.g. highways: "among 60 roads that had the most pedestrian deaths during 2001-2016, all were roads with adjacent commercial retail space, nearly all were multilane roads" If there's adjacent commercial space, it's not a highway, it's a stroad. The article explains it quite well: "There’s no single explanation for why it’s getting more dangerous to walk on US roads, but there are a few major contributing factors. One is deadly road design." "A stroad is the worst of both worlds, and is incredibly dangerous to pedestrians. The data bears this out: In 2021, the latest GHSA report says, 60.4 percent of pedestrian fatalities happened on such roads, which often lack infrastructure that would make it safe for pedestrians, such as good lighting and frequent crosswalks. As a consequence, many of the people killed last year were struck at night." "Another major factor contributing to climbing pedestrian fatalities is the American love affair with big vehicles. Over the last 20-plus years, US consumers have turned away from the small cars that used to dominate our roadways in favor of increasingly larger SUVs and light trucks. These larger, heavier vehicles create big blind spots and are more deadly to pedestrians when they strike them — especially children. From 2000 to 2019, smaller vehicles such as sedans dropped from 60 percent of all vehicles to around 40 percent, while the number of SUVs surged, from 10 percent to over 30 percent. In 2021, trucks and SUVs made up more than 80 percent of new vehicle sales, and there’s little sign of that trend abating" Personal responsibility isn't a useful concept when it comes to safety. Safety can only be achieved when the infrastructure is designed for it. Putting up a speed limit sign isn't going to slow down a vehicle, shining a red light at it is not going to stop it, a line on the road isn't going to prevent a vehicle from crossing it. That's how pedestrians and cyclists die. Reducing lanes down to one will stop overtaking and narrowing lanes will slow vehicles down, as will introducing turns and twists. Putting up a physical barrier between the road and a cycle path will prevent cars from intruding on the cyclists. Safety by design, not by wishful thinking.
acdha 3y ago
I’d also add that phones and in-car TVs are a huge distraction which didn’t used to be there. Something like 20-30% of people are driving around looking at their phones now and it’s common to see people watching videos on a phone or things like Tesla’s gigantic dashboard TVs. It seems like this is understood to be related to the rise in fatalities but the regulators don’t want to acknowledge it since they’d have to do something politically unpopular if they did.
jjav 3y ago
> I'm used to walking about 30-35Km a week in suburban Toronto. Close calls with cars happen on a weekly basis. Can you expand on how exactly do you have close calls with cars ever, let alone weekly? I don't walk as much as you but a decent amount. I've had close calls with cars... literally never. I'm having trouble picturing how that happens? I walk on sidewalks, zero chance of close calls with cars there. For busy streets, I cross on pedestrian crossings which are protected by red lights, so no issue there either. On quiet streets I cross wherever, but only after making sure no traffic, so no issue. So how does it happen? Are you forced to walk on the street due to lack of sidewalks? That's the only scenario I'm able to think about.
- david-gpu 3y ago
  Drivers backing from driveways without looking for pedestrians. Drivers making right turns on red only looking left for oncoming traffic without also looking right for pedestrians. Drivers speeding at crossings that have poor visibility due to hedges. In winter, cars driving too fast relative to the amount of traction they actually have on icy streets. While cycling, by far the most common problem I have is drivers passing me far too close. It only takes a very small percentage of drivers to drive carelessly to put people at serious risk of injury.
  - jjav 3y ago
    > Drivers backing from driveways without looking for pedestrians. > Drivers speeding at crossings that have poor visibility due to hedges. Both of these are things you should be watching for. When approaching driveways, look for people inside the car, that means the car might move. And a crossing with poor visibility for the driver probably has poor visibility for the walker as well, so don't cross until you're sure there is no traffic. If you truly are having close calls with cars all the time, it might be benefitial to walk more defensively. I can see having close calls in the above if one isn't paying attention, but not otherwise. Always make eye contact with drivers to get a sense of what they're doing, they might wave you to go first or you can wave them to go if in doubt. > Drivers making right turns on red only looking left for oncoming traffic without also looking right for pedestrians. Wait, if they are turning on red it means the pedestrian also has a red. > In winter, cars driving too fast relative to the amount of traction they actually have on icy streets. That I could see. Thankfully no winter as such here (silicon valley). > While cycling Yes, cycling is much more dangerous, since you're sharing the road with cars. I still bike a lot but yes, it's more dangerous. Walking shouldn't be though, since you have a separate sidewalk and as long as you pay attention when crossing.

mcpackieh 3y ago

Most pedestrian result from pedestrians doing stupid things, like walking in the middle of the road at night wearing black while drunk. 77% of pedestrian deaths occur at night: https://www.vox.com/23784549/pedestrian-deaths-traffic-safety-fatalities-governors-association https://www.vox.com/23784549/pedestrian-deaths-traffic-safet... 60% of pedestrian deaths occur on high-capacity urban roads: https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/i... The most dangerous roads are multilane roads e.g. highways: "among 60 roads that had the most pedestrian deaths during 2001-2016, all were roads with adjacent commercial retail space, nearly all were multilane roads" https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/i... 30% of pedestrian deaths involve a drunk pedestrian: "About one out of three (30%) involved a pedestrian with a BAC of at least 0.08 g/dL.7" https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/i... Men account for 70% of pedestrian deaths, because men are more inclined to have a severe disregard for their own safety: https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/males-and-females https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/males... If you simply choose to follow basic common sense, then these population-level statistics don't represent the actual risk to yourself. You're getting yourself freaked out by numbers that don't actually apply to you (or shouldn't if you have any sense.)

david-gpu 3y ago
> Most pedestrian result from pedestrians doing stupid things like walking in the middle of the road at night wearing black while drunk According to the local statistics I have [0], in something like 75% of car collisions the pedestrian had the right of way, and the immense majority of them occur at intersections rather than in the middle of the road. > 60% of pedestrian deaths occur on high-capacity urban roads And how does that compare to the amount of walking that happens on one area vs the other? > Men account for 70% of pedestrian deaths, because men are more inclined to have a severe disregard for their own safety What percentage of pedestrian Km are walked by men vs women? > You're getting yourself freaked out by numbers that don't actually apply to you (or shouldn't if you have any sense.) I am concerned for my safety because I actually walk and have noticed how often drivers don't even see me, in spite of wearing hi viz clothing. The statistics merely confirm what the risk I already noticed empirically: what sort of vehicles are dangerous to pedestrians (SUVs and pickups), where the danger occurs (busy intersections) and whose fault it is (predominantly drivers). Finally, it there is an inherent contradiction in the simplistic narrative that people barely walk anymore "even though nothing has changed": there is far more car traffic now precisely because people barely walk anymore. Walking doesn't kill, cars kill, so more traffic means more dangerous streets. It is rather obvious. [0] https://www.york.ca/transportation/traffic/traffic-safety-program https://www.york.ca/transportation/traffic/traffic-safety-pr...
Mawr 3y ago
> Most pedestrian result from pedestrians doing stupid things, like walking in the middle of the road at night wearing black while drunk. A ridiculous notion not supported by anything you've linked. Somehow it's the most vulnerable road users that are at fault? If that's the case, then why are pedestrian death rates in the US so bad compared to Europe? Do european pedestrians do fewer stupid things? Do they drink less? > The most dangerous roads are multilane roads e.g. highways: "among 60 roads that had the most pedestrian deaths during 2001-2016, all were roads with adjacent commercial retail space, nearly all were multilane roads" If there's adjacent commercial space, it's not a highway, it's a stroad. The article explains it quite well: "There’s no single explanation for why it’s getting more dangerous to walk on US roads, but there are a few major contributing factors. One is deadly road design." "A stroad is the worst of both worlds, and is incredibly dangerous to pedestrians. The data bears this out: In 2021, the latest GHSA report says, 60.4 percent of pedestrian fatalities happened on such roads, which often lack infrastructure that would make it safe for pedestrians, such as good lighting and frequent crosswalks. As a consequence, many of the people killed last year were struck at night." "Another major factor contributing to climbing pedestrian fatalities is the American love affair with big vehicles. Over the last 20-plus years, US consumers have turned away from the small cars that used to dominate our roadways in favor of increasingly larger SUVs and light trucks. These larger, heavier vehicles create big blind spots and are more deadly to pedestrians when they strike them — especially children. From 2000 to 2019, smaller vehicles such as sedans dropped from 60 percent of all vehicles to around 40 percent, while the number of SUVs surged, from 10 percent to over 30 percent. In 2021, trucks and SUVs made up more than 80 percent of new vehicle sales, and there’s little sign of that trend abating" Personal responsibility isn't a useful concept when it comes to safety. Safety can only be achieved when the infrastructure is designed for it. Putting up a speed limit sign isn't going to slow down a vehicle, shining a red light at it is not going to stop it, a line on the road isn't going to prevent a vehicle from crossing it. That's how pedestrians and cyclists die. Reducing lanes down to one will stop overtaking and narrowing lanes will slow vehicles down, as will introducing turns and twists. Putting up a physical barrier between the road and a cycle path will prevent cars from intruding on the cyclists. Safety by design, not by wishful thinking.

acdha 3y ago

I’d also add that phones and in-car TVs are a huge distraction which didn’t used to be there. Something like 20-30% of people are driving around looking at their phones now and it’s common to see people watching videos on a phone or things like Tesla’s gigantic dashboard TVs. It seems like this is understood to be related to the rise in fatalities but the regulators don’t want to acknowledge it since they’d have to do something politically unpopular if they did.

jjav 3y ago

> I'm used to walking about 30-35Km a week in suburban Toronto. Close calls with cars happen on a weekly basis. Can you expand on how exactly do you have close calls with cars ever, let alone weekly? I don't walk as much as you but a decent amount. I've had close calls with cars... literally never. I'm having trouble picturing how that happens? I walk on sidewalks, zero chance of close calls with cars there. For busy streets, I cross on pedestrian crossings which are protected by red lights, so no issue there either. On quiet streets I cross wherever, but only after making sure no traffic, so no issue. So how does it happen? Are you forced to walk on the street due to lack of sidewalks? That's the only scenario I'm able to think about.

david-gpu 3y ago
Drivers backing from driveways without looking for pedestrians. Drivers making right turns on red only looking left for oncoming traffic without also looking right for pedestrians. Drivers speeding at crossings that have poor visibility due to hedges. In winter, cars driving too fast relative to the amount of traction they actually have on icy streets. While cycling, by far the most common problem I have is drivers passing me far too close. It only takes a very small percentage of drivers to drive carelessly to put people at serious risk of injury.
- jjav 3y ago
  > Drivers backing from driveways without looking for pedestrians. > Drivers speeding at crossings that have poor visibility due to hedges. Both of these are things you should be watching for. When approaching driveways, look for people inside the car, that means the car might move. And a crossing with poor visibility for the driver probably has poor visibility for the walker as well, so don't cross until you're sure there is no traffic. If you truly are having close calls with cars all the time, it might be benefitial to walk more defensively. I can see having close calls in the above if one isn't paying attention, but not otherwise. Always make eye contact with drivers to get a sense of what they're doing, they might wave you to go first or you can wave them to go if in doubt. > Drivers making right turns on red only looking left for oncoming traffic without also looking right for pedestrians. Wait, if they are turning on red it means the pedestrian also has a red. > In winter, cars driving too fast relative to the amount of traction they actually have on icy streets. That I could see. Thankfully no winter as such here (silicon valley). > While cycling Yes, cycling is much more dangerous, since you're sharing the road with cars. I still bike a lot but yes, it's more dangerous. Walking shouldn't be though, since you have a separate sidewalk and as long as you pay attention when crossing.