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>> The blockade of food and water is new. It's not new. Food insecurity has been an issue for years. The blockade has caused severe food insecurity and malnut

by hbt 3y ago

>> The blockade of food and water is new. It's not new. Food insecurity has been an issue for years. The blockade has caused severe food insecurity and malnutrition among the 2.3 million people living in Gaza⁴⁵. According to the World Food Program (WFP), more than 60% of households in Gaza are food insecure and rely on humanitarian assistance⁵. The blockade has also affected the availability and quality of food in Gaza, as many products are scarce, expensive or expired⁵. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-per-cent-of-gaza-inhabitants-relied-on-international-aid-before-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-p... >> how can it be a genocide if people aren't dying because of it? I'm not waiting to see what happens when people are starved for weeks and I'm not the only one calling it a genocide: - https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evide... - https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/10/28/kilj-o28.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/10/28/kilj-o28.html >> It's not indiscriminate shooting. The strength of hamas is their tunnels and underground networks and how they use them to traffic weapons, goods and people to circumvent the blockades. That's the source of their power and bombing buildings changes little to Hamas infrastructure or leadership (which is in Qatar/overseas). Even destroying civilian infrastructure like cell towers and Internet does little. Hamas uses hardwired lines and radios as again, the city is small enough to be called a prison and they are fully aware of Israeli digital surveillance. Did bombing civilian villages change anything to Viet Cong tunnels in Vietnam? Or, the allies during WW2 bombing campaigns in Japan and Germany, did it rally the people against the authorities? The answer to both is no. >> If and they give up armed resistance, there could be peace tomorrow. The Palestinians have had many deals put forward and chose to continue fighting. Honestly, if you want to continue this conversation, I'm open to discussing those deals and brainstorming solutions such as grassroot peacebuilding projects, virtual diplomacy (difficult now that the population is voiceless, huh?), and economic integration. But, I don't believe it's honest to say Israel has displayed good will when Israel has implemented a system of permits and licenses that restricts the ability of Palestinian workers and businesses to access Israeli markets. Palestinians face limitations on exporting their products to Israeli and international markets, which can hinder economic growth and development. Any palestinian allowed to work are usually limited to agriculture and construction sector and often restricted to the occupied / settler zones. I want to define "Grassroots Peacebuilding" clearly because it's something I'm interested in and I believe in the power of individuals: "Prioritizing grassroots initiatives that bring Israelis and Palestinians together for dialogue, joint projects, and community-building activities can help build trust and understanding from the ground up. This approach emphasizes the power of individuals and communities to drive change." >> Egypt is also blockading Gaza. No one is blaming Egypt, and no one is committing terror acts against Egypt. Why is that? People are not blaming Egypt because it's not bombing Gaza and preparing a ground invasion. Egypt is blockading Gaza (as evidenced by the fact the border was only open for 23 days in 2022) https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/6/15/the-seven-border-crossings-of-gaza https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/6/15/the-seven-borde... The rationale for the Egypt blockade as I understand is: - Egypt considers Hamas a threat as it is an offshoot of the Muslism Brotherhood which was ousted from power in 2013. - Egypt accuses Hamas of supporting militant groups in the Sinai Peninsula, where Egypt has been fighting a long insurgency https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-arab-countries-unwilling-palestinian-refugees-gaza-104083766 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-arab-co... - Egypt also wants to maintain its peace treaty with Israel, which it signed in 1979. By preserving the status quo of the blockade until a lasting solution is foudn, Egypt maintains its role as a mediator and is not undermined by siding with one party over the other. It also continues to benefit from economic and military aid from the United States https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-arab-countries-unwilling-palestinian-refugees-gaza-104083766 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-arab-co... and avoids fueling the conflict which could spill into its borders as it already hosts millions of refugees from conflicts in Syria, Sudan, Ethiopia etc. Please note I have to get going with my day but I will reply later. Thank you Edit: because I got my links mixed up

edanm 3y ago
Thank you for your open mindedness and civil tone, I hope to continue your example. > The blockade has caused severe food insecurity and malnutrition among the 2.3 million people living in Gaza⁴⁵ First of all, I'm not sure I understand where your citations are (the 4, 5 superscript), am I missing something? I didn't see any mention of food insecurity in the link immediately following. The outside view here is that Palestinians haven't been dying of malnutrition over these last twenty years. Yes, outside aid is necessary, but Israel isn't denying that outside help in general. Btw, it's worth asking why this is automatically Israel's fault. Hamas is the government of Gaza, if Gaza is doing poorly, aren't they at fault? They could invest in improving their lives. > I'm not waiting to see what happens when people are starved for weeks and I'm not the only one calling it a genocide: I'm willing to bet whatever you want that Israel will not cause mass starvation among Gazans. We wouldn't do that. If we do that, then yes, that's evil. But despite everyone being super worried about the Israeli response, it's been 3 weeks, we're currently at war, and there's be no mass death of Gazans. (Again, the thousands of civilians killed is tragedy enough and I don't want to minimize that, but it's also definitely not a genocide.) Btw, the groups you link to are... not very persuasive to me. > The strength of hamas is their tunnels and underground networks [...] Did bombing civilian villages change anything to Viet Cong tunnels in Vietnam? Or, the allies during WW2 bombing campaigns in Japan and Germany, did it rally the people against the authorities? The answer to both is no. Now you're talking strategy, you're asking if in practice Hamas can be rooted out. I have no idea! I'm doubtful about it as you are. I hope we can, because I think the only way for Israel to be safe, and coincidentally the only way for Gazans to be safe, is with Hamas gone. I don't expect the bombings of Germany to have turned the populations against the government directly, but I don't think that was their only goal or the fact that they didn't means they weren't worth doing. Though I know very little about this topic - very possibly these weren't morally justified! Idk. > People are not blaming Egypt because it's not bombing Gaza and preparing a ground invasion. Yes, but I meant why are people not saying that Egypt is starving Gaza too, or causing Gaza to be underdeveloped too. And yes, Egypt isn't bombing Gaza, but Gazans aren't sending rockets at Egypt either. Which, reminder, they're continuing to do to Israel! I have had to run to a bomb shelter almost every day for 3 weeks, sometimes multiple times per day, as they try to kill me. Surely my government is allowed to do something to respond, like trying to bomb the people shooting at me to get them to stop? > [...] I don't believe it's honest to say Israel has displayed good will when Israel has implemented a system of permits and licenses that restricts the ability of Palestinian workers and businesses to access Israeli markets. Palestinians face limitations on exporting their products to Israeli and international markets, which can hinder economic growth and development. I mean, I think it's absolutely ok for Israel to not allow any Palestinian into Israel. For one thing, it's a separately governed entity - I'm not allowed to come work in the States, because the States has an immigration policy that precludes it. This doesn't mean the States is oppressing me or that it's not showing good faith towards me. As for export limitations, don't know much about which limitations exist. You might be right about this. (I certainly don't get behind everything the government does, especially this government which is terrible in so many ways.) > Honestly, if you want to continue this conversation, I'm open to discussing those deals and brainstorming solutions such as grassroot peacebuilding projects, virtual diplomacy (difficult now that the population is voiceless, huh?), and economic integration. I'm definitely open to discussing it. And I've seen several Israeli Arabs and several Palestinians speaking out against Hamas and for peace. I'm all in favor of peace. But Hamas has made it very clear that they are not, and that no peace is possible with them, nor any security for Israel. As an Israeli, the security of myself and my family has to come first - it shouldn't be at the expense of anyone else, but because of Hamas, it is at the expense of their own people. I'd love nothing more than a way out of this horrible situation we're in. It's not up to me, and I honestly believe that, despite how Israel acts, it's not up to Israel either - it's up to the Palestinians to decide they actually want peace. I honestly believe that as soon as they do, Israel will jump at the chance to make peace. (And just to be clear, I think Israel is pushing this away too, mostly because most Israelis believe that peace is not currently possible.)

by hbt 3y ago

edanm 3y ago

Thank you for your open mindedness and civil tone, I hope to continue your example. > The blockade has caused severe food insecurity and malnutrition among the 2.3 million people living in Gaza⁴⁵ First of all, I'm not sure I understand where your citations are (the 4, 5 superscript), am I missing something? I didn't see any mention of food insecurity in the link immediately following. The outside view here is that Palestinians haven't been dying of malnutrition over these last twenty years. Yes, outside aid is necessary, but Israel isn't denying that outside help in general. Btw, it's worth asking why this is automatically Israel's fault. Hamas is the government of Gaza, if Gaza is doing poorly, aren't they at fault? They could invest in improving their lives. > I'm not waiting to see what happens when people are starved for weeks and I'm not the only one calling it a genocide: I'm willing to bet whatever you want that Israel will not cause mass starvation among Gazans. We wouldn't do that. If we do that, then yes, that's evil. But despite everyone being super worried about the Israeli response, it's been 3 weeks, we're currently at war, and there's be no mass death of Gazans. (Again, the thousands of civilians killed is tragedy enough and I don't want to minimize that, but it's also definitely not a genocide.) Btw, the groups you link to are... not very persuasive to me. > The strength of hamas is their tunnels and underground networks [...] Did bombing civilian villages change anything to Viet Cong tunnels in Vietnam? Or, the allies during WW2 bombing campaigns in Japan and Germany, did it rally the people against the authorities? The answer to both is no. Now you're talking strategy, you're asking if in practice Hamas can be rooted out. I have no idea! I'm doubtful about it as you are. I hope we can, because I think the only way for Israel to be safe, and coincidentally the only way for Gazans to be safe, is with Hamas gone. I don't expect the bombings of Germany to have turned the populations against the government directly, but I don't think that was their only goal or the fact that they didn't means they weren't worth doing. Though I know very little about this topic - very possibly these weren't morally justified! Idk. > People are not blaming Egypt because it's not bombing Gaza and preparing a ground invasion. Yes, but I meant why are people not saying that Egypt is starving Gaza too, or causing Gaza to be underdeveloped too. And yes, Egypt isn't bombing Gaza, but Gazans aren't sending rockets at Egypt either. Which, reminder, they're continuing to do to Israel! I have had to run to a bomb shelter almost every day for 3 weeks, sometimes multiple times per day, as they try to kill me. Surely my government is allowed to do something to respond, like trying to bomb the people shooting at me to get them to stop? > [...] I don't believe it's honest to say Israel has displayed good will when Israel has implemented a system of permits and licenses that restricts the ability of Palestinian workers and businesses to access Israeli markets. Palestinians face limitations on exporting their products to Israeli and international markets, which can hinder economic growth and development. I mean, I think it's absolutely ok for Israel to not allow any Palestinian into Israel. For one thing, it's a separately governed entity - I'm not allowed to come work in the States, because the States has an immigration policy that precludes it. This doesn't mean the States is oppressing me or that it's not showing good faith towards me. As for export limitations, don't know much about which limitations exist. You might be right about this. (I certainly don't get behind everything the government does, especially this government which is terrible in so many ways.) > Honestly, if you want to continue this conversation, I'm open to discussing those deals and brainstorming solutions such as grassroot peacebuilding projects, virtual diplomacy (difficult now that the population is voiceless, huh?), and economic integration. I'm definitely open to discussing it. And I've seen several Israeli Arabs and several Palestinians speaking out against Hamas and for peace. I'm all in favor of peace. But Hamas has made it very clear that they are not, and that no peace is possible with them, nor any security for Israel. As an Israeli, the security of myself and my family has to come first - it shouldn't be at the expense of anyone else, but because of Hamas, it is at the expense of their own people. I'd love nothing more than a way out of this horrible situation we're in. It's not up to me, and I honestly believe that, despite how Israel acts, it's not up to Israel either - it's up to the Palestinians to decide they actually want peace. I honestly believe that as soon as they do, Israel will jump at the chance to make peace. (And just to be clear, I think Israel is pushing this away too, mostly because most Israelis believe that peace is not currently possible.)