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> nuanced discussion > mostly women and children. Isn't Israel inflicting civilian casualties because Hamas is using human shields? Isn't there a stark moral

> nuanced discussion > mostly women and children. Isn't Israel inflicting civilian casualties because Hamas is using human shields? Isn't there a stark moral difference between trying to minimize collateral damage (but still killing civillians) and intentionally fighting out of civilian infrastructure like hospitals?

tyingq 3y ago
I can see the "human shield" angle, though I don't personally agree that's what's happening. Either way, there's a choice there on Israel's part, to continue using bombs when they know the rough ratio of how many civilians, women, children, they are killing for each Hamas member they think they are killing. That ratio is highly unusual compared to other conflicts. Scale it down to something you can relate to. Someone did something unthinkable to your family, killing many of them. How many women and children, uninvolved in that, are you willing to kill to get to the original perpetrator? Is it justified if the original perpetrator is using them as shields? Isn't killing innocents because of atrocities to their people the same thing that started this most recent conflict? Edit: Compare the number of bombs the US dropped on entire countries over a year's time: https://progressive.org/latest/usa-bombs-drop-benjamin-davies-220112/ https://progressive.org/latest/usa-bombs-drop-benjamin-davie... You'll see that 6000 bombs in a week (Israel's numbers), into a ~10km x 40km densly populated area, is highly unusual.
- ngcazz 3y ago
  Human shield is a euphemism for target.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  A tweak on your question: Someone did something unthinkable to your family, killing many of them. They have the stated intent of continuing to kill as many others as possible. How many women and children, uninvolved in that, are you willing to kill to get to the original perpetrator? If you go after the perpetrator, people are going to die. But if you don't, (different) people are going to die.
  - tyingq 3y ago
    Fair, but what ratio are you comfortable with? How many innocents per Hamas member is justified?
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      I"m not comfortable even with the question. One way to look at it is as a stock versus a flow. How many people are you willing to kill today to prevent Hamas from killing X people a year? What's your time horizon? But another way to look at it is: Families of civilians killed have some motivation to become Hamas fighters. How many Hamas fighters are you willing to create in order to kill some Hamas fighters? It's a horrible situation. Until Hamas and Israel are willing to forgive each other for past killings, the killings will continue, on both sides.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    I would move to a more peaceful place long before I'd let that happen.
hypeit 3y ago
> Isn't Israel inflicting civilian casualties because Hamas is using human shields? Nope, they're doing ethnic cleansing. Just last night Israel bombed the West Bank. Hospitals, schools, restaurants, markets... taking civilians hostage.
- Thristle 3y ago
  you gonna source that?
  - hypeit 3y ago
    West Bank: * https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1715876278245470717 https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1715876278245470717 * https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1717151823499268497 https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1717151823499268497 * https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1715872245623496930 https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1715872245623496930 * https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1718127227026510058 https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1718127227026510058 * https://twitter.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/1718207465009840594 https://twitter.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/171820746500984059... * https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1714883129020719488 https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1714883129020719488 Market Bombings * https://twitter.com/PalestineCultu1/status/1715871208619573407 https://twitter.com/PalestineCultu1/status/17158712086195734... * https://twitter.com/Megatron_ron/status/1717182771934703923 https://twitter.com/Megatron_ron/status/1717182771934703923 Bakery Bombings * https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1714542418689712325 https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1714542418689712325 * https://twitter.com/mortazavi/status/1715978615186460719 https://twitter.com/mortazavi/status/1715978615186460719 * https://twitter.com/stickyshed/status/1718290604684394646 https://twitter.com/stickyshed/status/1718290604684394646
    - poisonarena 3y ago
      all of those are propaganda twitters from one side, and some are even controlled by the enemy combatants.. thats like my sources are ONLY the israeli army
ngcazz 3y ago
I urge you to think a little more critically about the purpose of the wording "human shields" The Israelis are dropping JDAMs, mortars and artillery into the most densely populated area in the world and Yoav Gallant's said bluntly they were going for "damage not precision" They have refused hostage exchanges and have already killed some of them (50 I think I read on the Al Jazeera English chyron) The number of Hamas operatives killed so far is in the low double digits range They are calling _anyone_ who is currently in Gaza a human shield, not to emphasize their intrinsic humanity, but rather to warn they are targets too
- tzs 3y ago
  > The Israelis are dropping JDAMs, mortars and artillery into the most densely populated area in the world. What specific area are you talking about? The Gaza strip as a whole is about 15k people per mi^2. Gaza City is in the 20-40k per mi^2 (sources vary quite a bit). Going with 40k per mi^2 would put it around 70th on the list of densest cities [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_popul...
  - ngcazz 3y ago
    I stand corrected on the numbers. Still though, the entirety of the Strip is under fire - and a human standing in front of another human is no shield when you blow up both of them
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  > The number of Hamas operatives killed so far is in the low double digits range Source?
- za3faran 3y ago
  Let's not forget that they also called the Palestinians animals. Sounds awfully similar to another genocidal regime that ruled over Germany before WWII.
- poisonarena 3y ago
  are you just making this up?
za3faran 3y ago
Did people in Gaza admit they were being used as human shields, or is this another pro-zionist talking point? We saw what Bassem Yousuf did on Piers' show.
- ngcazz 3y ago
  It's a talking point. They are human shields by virtue of residing in Gaza just like Hamas militants.

tyingq 3y ago

I can see the "human shield" angle, though I don't personally agree that's what's happening. Either way, there's a choice there on Israel's part, to continue using bombs when they know the rough ratio of how many civilians, women, children, they are killing for each Hamas member they think they are killing. That ratio is highly unusual compared to other conflicts. Scale it down to something you can relate to. Someone did something unthinkable to your family, killing many of them. How many women and children, uninvolved in that, are you willing to kill to get to the original perpetrator? Is it justified if the original perpetrator is using them as shields? Isn't killing innocents because of atrocities to their people the same thing that started this most recent conflict? Edit: Compare the number of bombs the US dropped on entire countries over a year's time: https://progressive.org/latest/usa-bombs-drop-benjamin-davies-220112/ https://progressive.org/latest/usa-bombs-drop-benjamin-davie... You'll see that 6000 bombs in a week (Israel's numbers), into a ~10km x 40km densly populated area, is highly unusual.

ngcazz 3y ago
Human shield is a euphemism for target.
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
A tweak on your question: Someone did something unthinkable to your family, killing many of them. They have the stated intent of continuing to kill as many others as possible. How many women and children, uninvolved in that, are you willing to kill to get to the original perpetrator? If you go after the perpetrator, people are going to die. But if you don't, (different) people are going to die.
- tyingq 3y ago
  Fair, but what ratio are you comfortable with? How many innocents per Hamas member is justified?
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    I"m not comfortable even with the question. One way to look at it is as a stock versus a flow. How many people are you willing to kill today to prevent Hamas from killing X people a year? What's your time horizon? But another way to look at it is: Families of civilians killed have some motivation to become Hamas fighters. How many Hamas fighters are you willing to create in order to kill some Hamas fighters? It's a horrible situation. Until Hamas and Israel are willing to forgive each other for past killings, the killings will continue, on both sides.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  I would move to a more peaceful place long before I'd let that happen.

hypeit 3y ago

> Isn't Israel inflicting civilian casualties because Hamas is using human shields? Nope, they're doing ethnic cleansing. Just last night Israel bombed the West Bank. Hospitals, schools, restaurants, markets... taking civilians hostage.

Thristle 3y ago
you gonna source that?
- hypeit 3y ago
  West Bank: * https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1715876278245470717 https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1715876278245470717 * https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1717151823499268497 https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1717151823499268497 * https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1715872245623496930 https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1715872245623496930 * https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1718127227026510058 https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1718127227026510058 * https://twitter.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/1718207465009840594 https://twitter.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/171820746500984059... * https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1714883129020719488 https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1714883129020719488 Market Bombings * https://twitter.com/PalestineCultu1/status/1715871208619573407 https://twitter.com/PalestineCultu1/status/17158712086195734... * https://twitter.com/Megatron_ron/status/1717182771934703923 https://twitter.com/Megatron_ron/status/1717182771934703923 Bakery Bombings * https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1714542418689712325 https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1714542418689712325 * https://twitter.com/mortazavi/status/1715978615186460719 https://twitter.com/mortazavi/status/1715978615186460719 * https://twitter.com/stickyshed/status/1718290604684394646 https://twitter.com/stickyshed/status/1718290604684394646
  - poisonarena 3y ago
    all of those are propaganda twitters from one side, and some are even controlled by the enemy combatants.. thats like my sources are ONLY the israeli army

ngcazz 3y ago

I urge you to think a little more critically about the purpose of the wording "human shields" The Israelis are dropping JDAMs, mortars and artillery into the most densely populated area in the world and Yoav Gallant's said bluntly they were going for "damage not precision" They have refused hostage exchanges and have already killed some of them (50 I think I read on the Al Jazeera English chyron) The number of Hamas operatives killed so far is in the low double digits range They are calling _anyone_ who is currently in Gaza a human shield, not to emphasize their intrinsic humanity, but rather to warn they are targets too

tzs 3y ago
> The Israelis are dropping JDAMs, mortars and artillery into the most densely populated area in the world. What specific area are you talking about? The Gaza strip as a whole is about 15k people per mi^2. Gaza City is in the 20-40k per mi^2 (sources vary quite a bit). Going with 40k per mi^2 would put it around 70th on the list of densest cities [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_popul...
- ngcazz 3y ago
  I stand corrected on the numbers. Still though, the entirety of the Strip is under fire - and a human standing in front of another human is no shield when you blow up both of them
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
> The number of Hamas operatives killed so far is in the low double digits range Source?
za3faran 3y ago
Let's not forget that they also called the Palestinians animals. Sounds awfully similar to another genocidal regime that ruled over Germany before WWII.
poisonarena 3y ago
are you just making this up?

za3faran 3y ago

Did people in Gaza admit they were being used as human shields, or is this another pro-zionist talking point? We saw what Bassem Yousuf did on Piers' show.

ngcazz 3y ago
It's a talking point. They are human shields by virtue of residing in Gaza just like Hamas militants.