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Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas (2009)

34 points by stareatgoats 3y ago

stareatgoats 3y ago
https://archive.ph/iPO3z https://archive.ph/iPO3z
tyingq 3y ago
Unfortunately, HN isn't great for any nuanced discussion in this space. Someone will flag this story in a few minutes. The overall death toll for Israel, including Gaza, is now higher than any month in other recent world conflicts, even though it's not yet been a month. And it's mostly women and children.
- TheRealHB 3y ago
  Indeed Or they literally remove all your "Karma" points for a comment not in-line with the current "message".
- isoprophlex 3y ago
  I find that the entire internet isn't a great space. There's too much hurt on both sides of the conflict, too much trauma for anything besides hate, anger and mass destruction.
  - sebow 3y ago
    I feel the opposite is true. You're right about this, if we were to resume the internet to the arab world/middle eastern world/etc. But the internet de facto is a global medium of discussion(for all intends and purposes, even though it's still somewhat segmented). This means it's more likely that people outside of this conflict, with no ties and partisanship, can have a 'more objective' look on this. This however is with a drawback: it's also easier to influence the "entire audience" through the power of peer-pressure (or straight out propaganda/agitprop).
    - isoprophlex 3y ago
      Yeah agreed, the stakes are immense for those with propaganda goals. To expand... I'm commenting from personal experience. I have no stake, besides an ever intensifying weltschmerz every time I turn on the news. But I see friends and acquaintances take super harsh positions: "they got it coming!", "we must fight! We have the right!", "all bystanders must pick a side (ours) or else you are complicit too!", "the other side is inhuman and has no right to exist!" And so few people I know are reacting in a de-escalatory manner. We collectively gaze into a bottomless pit of despair.
      - tyingq 3y ago
        >And so few people I know are reacting in a de-escalatory manner. We collectively gaze into a bottomless pit of despair. Well said. That's where I'm at. I'm very confused why anyone would be working against a "pause" (is there a synonym that's less controversial?).
- ngcazz 3y ago
  It's an absolute atrocity what Israel is inflicting on Gaza, and all institutions that could put a stop to it have plainly proved either to be disinterested or powerless. And anyone who speaks up against this aggression (Israel is well past the point of self-defense) risks their livelihood for stating the obvious. It must shock us all, yet many are cheerleading the extermination of Palestinians. This is a brutal stain on our humanity and we will face the consequences sooner or later.
- stareatgoats 3y ago
  > Unfortunately, HN isn't great for any nuanced discussion in this space Agree and disagree: as far as social media goes HN is possibly the most capable of nuanced discussion among them all. That doesn't stop contentious topics from going down in flames, especially if the title is provocative. But I'm hoping/sure many people will read, or bookmark this article and read it later with interest, because it is way more nuanced and informative than the title might imply.
  - ngcazz 3y ago
    Thanks for posting this.
  - tyingq 3y ago
    What I mean is that the stories and comments get flagged/killed and shut down very early. I'm surprised the story is still up.
    - basisword 3y ago
      I was also surprised - but I imagine it's due to timing. I would guess this will get more nuanced discussion outside US hours.
    - stareatgoats 3y ago
      I seems you are right, it got killed. But not flagged or anything, it just simply disappeared right after landing on the front page 3 hours ago: https://hnrankings.info/38048372/ https://hnrankings.info/38048372/ Weird, I haven't seen that before. It's like some sort of "shadowflagging", visible to people who have commented or with a direct link, invisible to everyone else. edit: ok, so now it got flagged, too.
      - jjgreen 3y ago
        Yep, seen this on several occasions.
      - kcplate 3y ago
        If you consume HN with a feedreader that pulls the feed fairly often you will see posts get flagged and “disappeared” which is what I call it when HN deletes the link from a post (but my feedreader still has it). Usually when the post’s link disappears I can see why if I hit the link in my feedreader, but I would say that at least a third of the time when I see a post flagged, it’s hard to see why logically, so I usually assume it’s some zealot who feels the duty to protect all of us from hearing or reading things they don’t like.
- karmakurtisaani 3y ago
  We're still doing a lot better than Reddit for example. Pointing out the civilian death toll and how it's only creating the next generation of Hamas fighters tends to turn into absolute shit show.
  - ericfrazier 3y ago
    Because no one knows what the death toll is except for what the terrorists are telling us.
    - tyingq 3y ago
      The numbers from the health ministry are historically accurate, and even often cited by the US State Department in the past[1]. Or, if you trust Israel's numbers, they are pretty open that they dropped, for example, 6000 bombs on Gaza in a single week. Very conservatively, a typical JDAM bomb kills everything in a 30-40 meter radius and more deaths out to 10x that distance. That's just bombs, Israel is also using artillery, mortars, drones, small arms, etc. And then there's whatever deaths a water+fuel+food+medicine blockade might cause. Gaza's population density is high and well known, as is the percentage of women and children. Try some emotionless math that tells you thousands of women and children aren't dead...it just doesn't work. [1] https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/israel-west-bank-and-gaza/ https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-...
      - Thristle 3y ago
        The precentage of woman and children in the population is known but that is only relevant if you assume Israel is bombing randomly Some civilians evict themselves from these areas (north and central gaza mainly) Some of the bombed areas would have less civilians in them even before the war since they are used by hamas for war (but obviously not 0) Israel publishes the high ranking Hamas members that are confirmed dead but don't report civ/"grunts" Not that I am saying we should take the health ministry word as fact (they lied before, Al-Ahli Hospital is just an example) but I don't think their numbers would be orders of magnitude off
- kryogen1c 3y ago
  > nuanced discussion > mostly women and children. Isn't Israel inflicting civilian casualties because Hamas is using human shields? Isn't there a stark moral difference between trying to minimize collateral damage (but still killing civillians) and intentionally fighting out of civilian infrastructure like hospitals?
  - tyingq 3y ago
    I can see the "human shield" angle, though I don't personally agree that's what's happening. Either way, there's a choice there on Israel's part, to continue using bombs when they know the rough ratio of how many civilians, women, children, they are killing for each Hamas member they think they are killing. That ratio is highly unusual compared to other conflicts. Scale it down to something you can relate to. Someone did something unthinkable to your family, killing many of them. How many women and children, uninvolved in that, are you willing to kill to get to the original perpetrator? Is it justified if the original perpetrator is using them as shields? Isn't killing innocents because of atrocities to their people the same thing that started this most recent conflict? Edit: Compare the number of bombs the US dropped on entire countries over a year's time: https://progressive.org/latest/usa-bombs-drop-benjamin-davies-220112/ https://progressive.org/latest/usa-bombs-drop-benjamin-davie... You'll see that 6000 bombs in a week (Israel's numbers), into a ~10km x 40km densly populated area, is highly unusual.
    - ngcazz 3y ago
      Human shield is a euphemism for target.
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      A tweak on your question: Someone did something unthinkable to your family, killing many of them. They have the stated intent of continuing to kill as many others as possible. How many women and children, uninvolved in that, are you willing to kill to get to the original perpetrator? If you go after the perpetrator, people are going to die. But if you don't, (different) people are going to die.
invalidname 3y ago
Yep. This is one of the biggest reasons everyone is furious at Benjamin Netnyahu. For 30 years he supported and used the Hamas as a cudgel against the PLO and as a threat against the moderates. The amount of stupidity around this is mind boggling.
- ngcazz 3y ago
  Like António Guterres strongly implied, the cycle of violence has been amplified by the Israeli government.
  - invalidname 3y ago
    Yes, but I think it's important to separate Benjamin Netnyahu as he went to the extreme during a period of time where we knew the Hamas is "serious". Previously Israel supported the Muslim Brotherhood, that was dumb. But they wanted Jihad "in the future". Also the PLO was still a terrorist organization back then. Netnyahu promoted the Hamas when the PLO abandoned terrorism and when the Hamas was known for extremely violent mass murder (exploding busses etc.). He's a special kind of idiot a*hole.
    - ngcazz 3y ago
      100%, but it is also politically expedient to keep Hamas around as that yields (well, used to anyway) the usual excuse for dehumanizing Palestinians..
      - invalidname 3y ago
        I'm saying that since the 90s this was almost entirely due to one guy. Other leaders from his party (e.g. Ariel Sharon, Ehud Olmert, etc.) didn't take the same approach.
foogazi 3y ago
[flagged]

34 points by stareatgoats 3y ago

https://archive.ph/iPO3z https://archive.ph/iPO3z

Unfortunately, HN isn't great for any nuanced discussion in this space. Someone will flag this story in a few minutes. The overall death toll for Israel, including Gaza, is now higher than any month in other recent world conflicts, even though it's not yet been a month. And it's mostly women and children.

TheRealHB 3y ago
Indeed Or they literally remove all your "Karma" points for a comment not in-line with the current "message".
isoprophlex 3y ago
I find that the entire internet isn't a great space. There's too much hurt on both sides of the conflict, too much trauma for anything besides hate, anger and mass destruction.
- sebow 3y ago
  I feel the opposite is true. You're right about this, if we were to resume the internet to the arab world/middle eastern world/etc. But the internet de facto is a global medium of discussion(for all intends and purposes, even though it's still somewhat segmented). This means it's more likely that people outside of this conflict, with no ties and partisanship, can have a 'more objective' look on this. This however is with a drawback: it's also easier to influence the "entire audience" through the power of peer-pressure (or straight out propaganda/agitprop).
  - isoprophlex 3y ago
    Yeah agreed, the stakes are immense for those with propaganda goals. To expand... I'm commenting from personal experience. I have no stake, besides an ever intensifying weltschmerz every time I turn on the news. But I see friends and acquaintances take super harsh positions: "they got it coming!", "we must fight! We have the right!", "all bystanders must pick a side (ours) or else you are complicit too!", "the other side is inhuman and has no right to exist!" And so few people I know are reacting in a de-escalatory manner. We collectively gaze into a bottomless pit of despair.
    - tyingq 3y ago
      >And so few people I know are reacting in a de-escalatory manner. We collectively gaze into a bottomless pit of despair. Well said. That's where I'm at. I'm very confused why anyone would be working against a "pause" (is there a synonym that's less controversial?).
ngcazz 3y ago
It's an absolute atrocity what Israel is inflicting on Gaza, and all institutions that could put a stop to it have plainly proved either to be disinterested or powerless. And anyone who speaks up against this aggression (Israel is well past the point of self-defense) risks their livelihood for stating the obvious. It must shock us all, yet many are cheerleading the extermination of Palestinians. This is a brutal stain on our humanity and we will face the consequences sooner or later.
stareatgoats 3y ago
> Unfortunately, HN isn't great for any nuanced discussion in this space Agree and disagree: as far as social media goes HN is possibly the most capable of nuanced discussion among them all. That doesn't stop contentious topics from going down in flames, especially if the title is provocative. But I'm hoping/sure many people will read, or bookmark this article and read it later with interest, because it is way more nuanced and informative than the title might imply.
- ngcazz 3y ago
  Thanks for posting this.
- tyingq 3y ago
  What I mean is that the stories and comments get flagged/killed and shut down very early. I'm surprised the story is still up.
  - basisword 3y ago
    I was also surprised - but I imagine it's due to timing. I would guess this will get more nuanced discussion outside US hours.
  - stareatgoats 3y ago
    I seems you are right, it got killed. But not flagged or anything, it just simply disappeared right after landing on the front page 3 hours ago: https://hnrankings.info/38048372/ https://hnrankings.info/38048372/ Weird, I haven't seen that before. It's like some sort of "shadowflagging", visible to people who have commented or with a direct link, invisible to everyone else. edit: ok, so now it got flagged, too.
    - jjgreen 3y ago
      Yep, seen this on several occasions.
    - kcplate 3y ago
      If you consume HN with a feedreader that pulls the feed fairly often you will see posts get flagged and “disappeared” which is what I call it when HN deletes the link from a post (but my feedreader still has it). Usually when the post’s link disappears I can see why if I hit the link in my feedreader, but I would say that at least a third of the time when I see a post flagged, it’s hard to see why logically, so I usually assume it’s some zealot who feels the duty to protect all of us from hearing or reading things they don’t like.
karmakurtisaani 3y ago
We're still doing a lot better than Reddit for example. Pointing out the civilian death toll and how it's only creating the next generation of Hamas fighters tends to turn into absolute shit show.
- ericfrazier 3y ago
  Because no one knows what the death toll is except for what the terrorists are telling us.
  - tyingq 3y ago
    The numbers from the health ministry are historically accurate, and even often cited by the US State Department in the past[1]. Or, if you trust Israel's numbers, they are pretty open that they dropped, for example, 6000 bombs on Gaza in a single week. Very conservatively, a typical JDAM bomb kills everything in a 30-40 meter radius and more deaths out to 10x that distance. That's just bombs, Israel is also using artillery, mortars, drones, small arms, etc. And then there's whatever deaths a water+fuel+food+medicine blockade might cause. Gaza's population density is high and well known, as is the percentage of women and children. Try some emotionless math that tells you thousands of women and children aren't dead...it just doesn't work. [1] https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/israel-west-bank-and-gaza/ https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-...
    - Thristle 3y ago
      The precentage of woman and children in the population is known but that is only relevant if you assume Israel is bombing randomly Some civilians evict themselves from these areas (north and central gaza mainly) Some of the bombed areas would have less civilians in them even before the war since they are used by hamas for war (but obviously not 0) Israel publishes the high ranking Hamas members that are confirmed dead but don't report civ/"grunts" Not that I am saying we should take the health ministry word as fact (they lied before, Al-Ahli Hospital is just an example) but I don't think their numbers would be orders of magnitude off
kryogen1c 3y ago
> nuanced discussion > mostly women and children. Isn't Israel inflicting civilian casualties because Hamas is using human shields? Isn't there a stark moral difference between trying to minimize collateral damage (but still killing civillians) and intentionally fighting out of civilian infrastructure like hospitals?
- tyingq 3y ago
  I can see the "human shield" angle, though I don't personally agree that's what's happening. Either way, there's a choice there on Israel's part, to continue using bombs when they know the rough ratio of how many civilians, women, children, they are killing for each Hamas member they think they are killing. That ratio is highly unusual compared to other conflicts. Scale it down to something you can relate to. Someone did something unthinkable to your family, killing many of them. How many women and children, uninvolved in that, are you willing to kill to get to the original perpetrator? Is it justified if the original perpetrator is using them as shields? Isn't killing innocents because of atrocities to their people the same thing that started this most recent conflict? Edit: Compare the number of bombs the US dropped on entire countries over a year's time: https://progressive.org/latest/usa-bombs-drop-benjamin-davies-220112/ https://progressive.org/latest/usa-bombs-drop-benjamin-davie... You'll see that 6000 bombs in a week (Israel's numbers), into a ~10km x 40km densly populated area, is highly unusual.
  - ngcazz 3y ago
    Human shield is a euphemism for target.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    A tweak on your question: Someone did something unthinkable to your family, killing many of them. They have the stated intent of continuing to kill as many others as possible. How many women and children, uninvolved in that, are you willing to kill to get to the original perpetrator? If you go after the perpetrator, people are going to die. But if you don't, (different) people are going to die.

invalidname 3y ago

Yep. This is one of the biggest reasons everyone is furious at Benjamin Netnyahu. For 30 years he supported and used the Hamas as a cudgel against the PLO and as a threat against the moderates. The amount of stupidity around this is mind boggling.

ngcazz 3y ago
Like António Guterres strongly implied, the cycle of violence has been amplified by the Israeli government.
- invalidname 3y ago
  Yes, but I think it's important to separate Benjamin Netnyahu as he went to the extreme during a period of time where we knew the Hamas is "serious". Previously Israel supported the Muslim Brotherhood, that was dumb. But they wanted Jihad "in the future". Also the PLO was still a terrorist organization back then. Netnyahu promoted the Hamas when the PLO abandoned terrorism and when the Hamas was known for extremely violent mass murder (exploding busses etc.). He's a special kind of idiot a*hole.
  - ngcazz 3y ago
    100%, but it is also politically expedient to keep Hamas around as that yields (well, used to anyway) the usual excuse for dehumanizing Palestinians..
    - invalidname 3y ago
      I'm saying that since the 90s this was almost entirely due to one guy. Other leaders from his party (e.g. Ariel Sharon, Ehud Olmert, etc.) didn't take the same approach.

foogazi 3y ago

[flagged]