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> No one actually believes that all or even most of the buildings destroyed in this campaign was "used by Hamas" if you are being honest with yourself. It's obv

by edanm 3y ago

> No one actually believes that all or even most of the buildings destroyed in this campaign was "used by Hamas" if you are being honest with yourself. It's obviously collective punishment and revenge with a little bit of show ("we dropped leaflets" or "we sent warnings by SMS") for those who need it in order to go to bed at night. Sorry, no. I don't believe that. Granted, I'm Israeli, and have far more trust in the Israeli public and soldiers than most people in the world. But it really is true that Hamas uses human shields. It really is true that they place bases in places like hospitals. And it also is really true that many, hopefully most Israelis, wouldn't comply with an order to bomb a building only to kill civilians with no military value. I understand why that might be a statement that outsiders wouldn't trust. And I'm sure there have been plenty of mistakes and even many times where people did do the wrong thing, like in every conflict in the world. I just don't think that as a matter of policy, Israel is bombing buildings with no military reason.

kingofpandora 3y ago
So you look at the aerial and satellite photography and you really believe that every last building was justifiably destroyed as a legitimate military target? If that's the case, then the government propaganda has done its job. There's nothing more to say.
- true_religion 3y ago
  I’m not sure you can bomb things in a city and not get collateral damage. Also, the poster admitted that they get things wrong. It’s only natural to err on the side of false positives when the alternative is allowing your enemy to live and kill your people later. This shouldn’t be seen as any sort of approval for this war. I would prefer no war, to the natural consequences of having one.
matsemann 3y ago
> But it really is true that Hamas uses human shields. It really is true that they place bases in places like hospitals. Then don't fucking bomb it. You're defending war crimes and terrorism.
- edanm 3y ago
  > Then don't fucking bomb it. You're defending war crimes and terrorism. 1. It's not a war crime. If one side places their militants in a hospital, the hospital is no longer afforded protection. If anyone is commiting war crimes, it's Hamas, by placing their HQ in a hospital. 2. As much as I'd love to not bomb anybody, they are actively at this moment shooting rockets at me. What exactly should I do? Just wait until they inevitably manage to kill me?
  - matsemann 3y ago
    2. Who are "they" shooting rockets at you? The children you're killing? The civilians in a hospital getting treatment form previous bombings? I stand by my statement. You're defending war crimes and terrorism. It's what it is, no matter how justified you believe it is to kill these innocent people.
    - edanm 3y ago
      > Who are "they" shooting rockets at you? The children you're killing? The civilians in a hospital getting treatment form previous bombings? The Hamas militants that are using hospitals as a base of operations. If you honestly want to discuss this, then here's my suggestion - let's set aside the factual question for a second. If it's true that Hamas is firing rockets from within hospitals and/or using hospitals as a base of operations, would you then consider it justified to attack back? If yes, then we just have the factual matter of whether it's true or not and we can check that. If no, then my followup question is - so what should we do? What other option is there if someone is firing rockets at you right now, if you refuse to fire back? I'm asking in all sincerity, I'm literally running to a bomb shelter multiple times a day as rockets are fired at me, is there something you think is ok for my government to do to try and defend me?
      - matsemann 3y ago
        What your government could do? Perhaps stop the occupation and killings of Palestinians. I think you would find that the innocent people being killed by your bombs don't really want to fight, they just want to live their life in peace. I can't fathom how you can justify bombing thousands of children just because some operation is carried out from somewhere in the city. I mean, what is it now, 3000 children in a matter of days being killed by Israel? But sure, killing them is probably "defending you"..
absrd 3y ago
What could possibly ground your faith in the Israeli government, given the intelligence failure of massive proportions we all witnessed on 10/7? How can you believe that the same government which failed to foresee a massive Hamas offensive on its own border just weeks ago, is now suddenly aware of the exact positions of underground Hamas bases deep within the Gaza strip, and is even privy to phone calls between Hamas operatives? That's also not to mention the many times Israel has been caught lying to cover its own military actions. You only have to look as far back as the targeted killing of Shireen Abu Akleh

by edanm 3y ago

kingofpandora 3y ago

So you look at the aerial and satellite photography and you really believe that every last building was justifiably destroyed as a legitimate military target? If that's the case, then the government propaganda has done its job. There's nothing more to say.

true_religion 3y ago
I’m not sure you can bomb things in a city and not get collateral damage. Also, the poster admitted that they get things wrong. It’s only natural to err on the side of false positives when the alternative is allowing your enemy to live and kill your people later. This shouldn’t be seen as any sort of approval for this war. I would prefer no war, to the natural consequences of having one.

matsemann 3y ago

> But it really is true that Hamas uses human shields. It really is true that they place bases in places like hospitals. Then don't fucking bomb it. You're defending war crimes and terrorism.

edanm 3y ago
> Then don't fucking bomb it. You're defending war crimes and terrorism. 1. It's not a war crime. If one side places their militants in a hospital, the hospital is no longer afforded protection. If anyone is commiting war crimes, it's Hamas, by placing their HQ in a hospital. 2. As much as I'd love to not bomb anybody, they are actively at this moment shooting rockets at me. What exactly should I do? Just wait until they inevitably manage to kill me?
- matsemann 3y ago
  2. Who are "they" shooting rockets at you? The children you're killing? The civilians in a hospital getting treatment form previous bombings? I stand by my statement. You're defending war crimes and terrorism. It's what it is, no matter how justified you believe it is to kill these innocent people.
  - edanm 3y ago
    > Who are "they" shooting rockets at you? The children you're killing? The civilians in a hospital getting treatment form previous bombings? The Hamas militants that are using hospitals as a base of operations. If you honestly want to discuss this, then here's my suggestion - let's set aside the factual question for a second. If it's true that Hamas is firing rockets from within hospitals and/or using hospitals as a base of operations, would you then consider it justified to attack back? If yes, then we just have the factual matter of whether it's true or not and we can check that. If no, then my followup question is - so what should we do? What other option is there if someone is firing rockets at you right now, if you refuse to fire back? I'm asking in all sincerity, I'm literally running to a bomb shelter multiple times a day as rockets are fired at me, is there something you think is ok for my government to do to try and defend me?
    - matsemann 3y ago
      What your government could do? Perhaps stop the occupation and killings of Palestinians. I think you would find that the innocent people being killed by your bombs don't really want to fight, they just want to live their life in peace. I can't fathom how you can justify bombing thousands of children just because some operation is carried out from somewhere in the city. I mean, what is it now, 3000 children in a matter of days being killed by Israel? But sure, killing them is probably "defending you"..

absrd 3y ago

What could possibly ground your faith in the Israeli government, given the intelligence failure of massive proportions we all witnessed on 10/7? How can you believe that the same government which failed to foresee a massive Hamas offensive on its own border just weeks ago, is now suddenly aware of the exact positions of underground Hamas bases deep within the Gaza strip, and is even privy to phone calls between Hamas operatives? That's also not to mention the many times Israel has been caught lying to cover its own military actions. You only have to look as far back as the targeted killing of Shireen Abu Akleh