6 ms·

400M PCs can't run Win 11: PIRG petitions Microsoft to extend Win 10 life

30 points by vkaku 3y ago

DiabloD3 3y ago
Real headline: 400M machines have unpatchable hardware bugs caused by Intel's incompetence that have to be destroyed/removed from prod before the end of their intended lifespan; Microsoft considers it a liability to keep those machines in use.
- AussieWog93 3y ago
  There are patches that work around it (albeit with a performance cost), and new hardware bugs that will be discovered in future. There's absolutely no reason why the company that still maintains backwards compatibility for Windows 9x software can't support hardware from 2015.
  - porridgeraisin 3y ago
    This. Spectre and meltdown, while academically intriguing, don't really matter in practice for consumer devices. Every kernel I have booted has had mitigations=off.
  - throw101010 3y ago
    Especially considering the mount of electronic waste that 400M of PCs represents. I think this should be one argument authorities should use against Microsoft when it makes all this hardware obsolete with a software update. If there are software workarounds that can prolong the use of that hardware, even at the cost of performance, they should be liable (and maybe subsidized) to implement them.
  - ysleepy 3y ago
    That's a red herring. Win11 supports cpus with lots of bugs. Imagine what the errata document for the Snapdragon CPUs looks like. Afaik it's mostly about TPM 2.0 and virtualization support. If people are happy or stuck with their fully working machines, it should not be up to Microsoft to arbitrarily turn them into e-waste.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      What’s the basis for requiring Microsoft to either/both: support them in Win11 or continue Win10 support beyond the timeline they published ages ago? I do hope they do offer a practical path here, but I disagree that they should be able to be forced to do so. Users who are happy with those machines can continue to use them as-agreed.
      - alpaca128 3y ago
        They don't have to keep supporting Windows 10 but they knowingly decided to cut support for 400M devices because of some arbitrary hardware features, and that's unreasonable imho.
- bogantech 3y ago
  Is there somewhere I can read about these bugs?
  - extragood 3y ago
    I'm far from an expert, but I'm pretty sure they're referring to Spectre and Meltdown exploits: https://meltdownattack.com/ https://meltdownattack.com/
- vasdae 3y ago
  I had a 4790K which was vulnerable to basically everything and while I'm sure the patches had a noticeable impact in benchmarks I couldn't notice much during regular use. So yes, I blame Microsoft.
- RetroTechie 3y ago
  A linked article from El Reg (2021) also mentions a TPM 2.0 module as required: https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/28/microsoft_windows_11_insider_preview_released/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/28/microsoft_windows_11_... So there may be a good # of systems lacking that but otherwise fully functional. CPU bugs or vulnerabilities hardly ever prevent running a newer OS. Never mind that those may have been patched or mitigated in the meantime by BIOS or microcode updates. So imho this is just forced upgrading (as usual). "Buy new PC, get new OS". Hopefully this crap drives more users to Linux or *BSD.
- pxmpxm 3y ago
  Yet those 400m machines have been happily running this entire time?
dewbrite 3y ago
Last night I attempted to install Windows 11 on a new laptop, released 2022. The installer doesn't allow you to continue without connecting to the Internet first, and Windows doesn't have the right WiFi drivers built in. I'm lazy, so I installed Fedora instead I know this isn't precisely related, but these anti-patterns add up. It does not feel good to be a Microsoft customer.
- k4rli 3y ago
  This is an exceptional blocker with newer laptops that lack RJ45. Linux is the only way.
  - placatedmayhem 3y ago
    There's a bypass, but it's not officially documented fwict. Some tech news outlets have reported on it, though. Here's a Microsoft answers post documenting it: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/forum/all/set-up-windows-11-without-internet-oobebypassnro/4fc44554-b416-4ecb-8961-6f79fd55ae0f https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/forum/all/set-up...
- crimsontech 3y ago
  I ran windows update last night on a modern laptop and now it just blue screens instead of starting. I will probably just install fedora on it too. I seem to have nothing but unwanted surprises on windows.
  - alpaca128 3y ago
    That's the main reason that made me switch to Linux. A Windows 10 update caused bluescreens on boot and reinstalling didn't help because the official installation image already included the faulty update. After months of bugs and annoyances and then that I had enough of spending a weekend on fixing the system.
- nar001 3y ago
  Didn't clicking "join a domain" work? It let's you create an account without any fuss
lionkor 3y ago
Its not like Windows 11 has to be supported. This is effectively a 400M device niche that will open up, not sure how thats a bad thing. People shouldnt use Windows, its not that great.
- rewmie 3y ago
  > This is effectively a 400M device niche that will open up, not sure how thats a bad thing. The Android fragmentation problem suggests that no market will open up, and the 400M pool of devices running Windows 10 will simply continue using an operating system that won't receive security updates. > People shouldnt use Windows, its not that great. If you are a Windows user who uses Windows software, what better option is there?
  - lionkor 3y ago
    > If you are a Windows user who uses Windows software then keep doing that, if thats productive. But once that turns into "If you are a (oudated, unsecure) Windows user who uses (outdated, unsecure) Windows software", there is an argument to be made for someone to make an alternative that is easy to transition to. I dont think its on the users, I'm saying this should be seen as opening up a niche and take the opportunity to exploit this market weakness.
    - rewmie 3y ago
      > (...) there is an argument to be made for someone to make an alternative that is easy to transition to. Again, what better option is there? You're the one quick to claim "People shouldnt use Windows, its not that great." What should they use then?
      - walteweiss 3y ago
        Fedora, obviously.
    - jabradoodle 3y ago
      Perhaps this is evidence that markets are not always efficient...
AniseAbyss 3y ago
[dead]
mrkeen 3y ago
Windows 11 does not think my ThreadRipper 1950x is good enough for it. I wonder which one I'll do without.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
hyperman1 3y ago
I wonder what is going on here, market wise. Microsoft displays one anti-consumer move after another. Classic monopolist behaviour. Meanwhile, people literally prefer buying a new PC, tolerate the ads, tolerate the disrespect for their preferences, take the risk of cloud providers closing accounts and taking their life history with it. The PC market seems ready for a shake up. I wish BEOS started today.
- xcdzvyn 3y ago
  Well, a lack of competition. The other main players are Linux and macOS; Linux projects' open source nature stunts public appeal and Apple only cares to appeal to a small segment of the market.
  - leosanchez 3y ago
    > Linux projects' open source nature stunts public appeal. Can you eloborate ? IMO Desktop Linux's lack of GUI apps stunts public appeal. (I use fedora btw)
    - Rury 3y ago
      The public market consists of a wide variety of people. From computer experts, to grandmas who barely know what email is. Linux will never work for those grandma types, whereas closed source stuff like Mac OS does all those complicated things for you (but you have no control over). Grandmas like that, computer experts don't. Now who do you think the public is mostly made up of? People who fall closer to computer experts or grandmas?
    - joecot 3y ago
      Open source projects are made and managed by software developers. Not by graphic designers, not by UI/UX experts. Developers will make something that works, that scratches their itch. But it can take years if not decades for a project to actually look polished, be easy for a casual computer user to use. For most open source projects, the way to contribute is "make a pull request", which usually involves more programming than a design person can or wants to contribute in order to make things look good. For a project to be user friendly, it needs people besides software developers working on it. See, for example, Mastodon and Lemmy. They're excellent federated social media, they should replace Twitter and reddit. But I heard someone say the word "Federated" at a bar last night while describing them, and I pegged them instantly as a software developer. Federation? Choosing an instance? Casual users glaze over. Without a dead simple onboarding process, they will never replace corporate social media. As a long time Ubuntu user, I get annoyed at the way they've moved towards kiddy proofing a number of things, but I can tell they're doing their best to make it usable by more casual computer users. It's still not 100% there, but it's way closer than it has been, and it's one of the most user friendly distros.
DrNosferatu 3y ago
Then I guess this will be the year of the Linux desktop…
nytesky 3y ago
I have a 2019 Microsoft Surface laptop which cost a pretty penny (bought it for the wife). It doesn’t support Windows 11, I think because of TPM. With end of life at 2025, I would have gotten about same life from a Chromebook which famously have expiration dates, for a fraction of the cost. Is there really no way to work around the missing hardware with virtualization? Apple supports processor changes for several version (I have an Intel and an M2 MacBook both running same software). What is the deal? Forget extending windows 10 — get Windows 11 working somehow.
- goosedragons 3y ago
  Are you sure its really not supported? You might have to enable the software TPM in the BIOS but if it has an 8th+ Gen Intel CPU as a 2019/2018 Surface Laptop should, you should be able to. Only the first Gen Surface laptop with 7th gen CPUs are technically unsupported. Its also not hard to bypass the TPM requirement.
  - nytesky 3y ago
    How do you bypass when upgrading? I don’t want to buy another W11 license nor pirate. I’ll end up on Linux, but my wife will never touch it again.
    - goosedragons 3y ago
      You can do it by making an ISO with Rufus by changing the "image option".
- rjst01 3y ago
  I'm in the same boat, with a 2020 Surface Go. It's not a powerful machine but works just fine for taking notes and light browsing. I'm fine with it being stuck on Windows 10 - 11 would probably make it unusably slow - but when I purchased it I reasonably expected it to have similar longevity to the then 6 year old iPad it replaced.
  - 3y ago

30 points by vkaku 3y ago

Real headline: 400M machines have unpatchable hardware bugs caused by Intel's incompetence that have to be destroyed/removed from prod before the end of their intended lifespan; Microsoft considers it a liability to keep those machines in use.

AussieWog93 3y ago
There are patches that work around it (albeit with a performance cost), and new hardware bugs that will be discovered in future. There's absolutely no reason why the company that still maintains backwards compatibility for Windows 9x software can't support hardware from 2015.
- porridgeraisin 3y ago
  This. Spectre and meltdown, while academically intriguing, don't really matter in practice for consumer devices. Every kernel I have booted has had mitigations=off.
- throw101010 3y ago
  Especially considering the mount of electronic waste that 400M of PCs represents. I think this should be one argument authorities should use against Microsoft when it makes all this hardware obsolete with a software update. If there are software workarounds that can prolong the use of that hardware, even at the cost of performance, they should be liable (and maybe subsidized) to implement them.
- ysleepy 3y ago
  That's a red herring. Win11 supports cpus with lots of bugs. Imagine what the errata document for the Snapdragon CPUs looks like. Afaik it's mostly about TPM 2.0 and virtualization support. If people are happy or stuck with their fully working machines, it should not be up to Microsoft to arbitrarily turn them into e-waste.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    What’s the basis for requiring Microsoft to either/both: support them in Win11 or continue Win10 support beyond the timeline they published ages ago? I do hope they do offer a practical path here, but I disagree that they should be able to be forced to do so. Users who are happy with those machines can continue to use them as-agreed.
    - alpaca128 3y ago
      They don't have to keep supporting Windows 10 but they knowingly decided to cut support for 400M devices because of some arbitrary hardware features, and that's unreasonable imho.
bogantech 3y ago
Is there somewhere I can read about these bugs?
- extragood 3y ago
  I'm far from an expert, but I'm pretty sure they're referring to Spectre and Meltdown exploits: https://meltdownattack.com/ https://meltdownattack.com/
vasdae 3y ago
I had a 4790K which was vulnerable to basically everything and while I'm sure the patches had a noticeable impact in benchmarks I couldn't notice much during regular use. So yes, I blame Microsoft.
RetroTechie 3y ago
A linked article from El Reg (2021) also mentions a TPM 2.0 module as required: https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/28/microsoft_windows_11_insider_preview_released/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/28/microsoft_windows_11_... So there may be a good # of systems lacking that but otherwise fully functional. CPU bugs or vulnerabilities hardly ever prevent running a newer OS. Never mind that those may have been patched or mitigated in the meantime by BIOS or microcode updates. So imho this is just forced upgrading (as usual). "Buy new PC, get new OS". Hopefully this crap drives more users to Linux or *BSD.
pxmpxm 3y ago
Yet those 400m machines have been happily running this entire time?

dewbrite 3y ago

Last night I attempted to install Windows 11 on a new laptop, released 2022. The installer doesn't allow you to continue without connecting to the Internet first, and Windows doesn't have the right WiFi drivers built in. I'm lazy, so I installed Fedora instead I know this isn't precisely related, but these anti-patterns add up. It does not feel good to be a Microsoft customer.

k4rli 3y ago
This is an exceptional blocker with newer laptops that lack RJ45. Linux is the only way.
- placatedmayhem 3y ago
  There's a bypass, but it's not officially documented fwict. Some tech news outlets have reported on it, though. Here's a Microsoft answers post documenting it: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/forum/all/set-up-windows-11-without-internet-oobebypassnro/4fc44554-b416-4ecb-8961-6f79fd55ae0f https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/forum/all/set-up...
crimsontech 3y ago
I ran windows update last night on a modern laptop and now it just blue screens instead of starting. I will probably just install fedora on it too. I seem to have nothing but unwanted surprises on windows.
- alpaca128 3y ago
  That's the main reason that made me switch to Linux. A Windows 10 update caused bluescreens on boot and reinstalling didn't help because the official installation image already included the faulty update. After months of bugs and annoyances and then that I had enough of spending a weekend on fixing the system.
nar001 3y ago
Didn't clicking "join a domain" work? It let's you create an account without any fuss

lionkor 3y ago

Its not like Windows 11 has to be supported. This is effectively a 400M device niche that will open up, not sure how thats a bad thing. People shouldnt use Windows, its not that great.

rewmie 3y ago
> This is effectively a 400M device niche that will open up, not sure how thats a bad thing. The Android fragmentation problem suggests that no market will open up, and the 400M pool of devices running Windows 10 will simply continue using an operating system that won't receive security updates. > People shouldnt use Windows, its not that great. If you are a Windows user who uses Windows software, what better option is there?
- lionkor 3y ago
  > If you are a Windows user who uses Windows software then keep doing that, if thats productive. But once that turns into "If you are a (oudated, unsecure) Windows user who uses (outdated, unsecure) Windows software", there is an argument to be made for someone to make an alternative that is easy to transition to. I dont think its on the users, I'm saying this should be seen as opening up a niche and take the opportunity to exploit this market weakness.
  - rewmie 3y ago
    > (...) there is an argument to be made for someone to make an alternative that is easy to transition to. Again, what better option is there? You're the one quick to claim "People shouldnt use Windows, its not that great." What should they use then?
    - walteweiss 3y ago
      Fedora, obviously.
  - jabradoodle 3y ago
    Perhaps this is evidence that markets are not always efficient...

AniseAbyss 3y ago

[dead]

mrkeen 3y ago

Windows 11 does not think my ThreadRipper 1950x is good enough for it. I wonder which one I'll do without.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

hyperman1 3y ago

I wonder what is going on here, market wise. Microsoft displays one anti-consumer move after another. Classic monopolist behaviour. Meanwhile, people literally prefer buying a new PC, tolerate the ads, tolerate the disrespect for their preferences, take the risk of cloud providers closing accounts and taking their life history with it. The PC market seems ready for a shake up. I wish BEOS started today.

xcdzvyn 3y ago
Well, a lack of competition. The other main players are Linux and macOS; Linux projects' open source nature stunts public appeal and Apple only cares to appeal to a small segment of the market.
- leosanchez 3y ago
  > Linux projects' open source nature stunts public appeal. Can you eloborate ? IMO Desktop Linux's lack of GUI apps stunts public appeal. (I use fedora btw)
  - Rury 3y ago
    The public market consists of a wide variety of people. From computer experts, to grandmas who barely know what email is. Linux will never work for those grandma types, whereas closed source stuff like Mac OS does all those complicated things for you (but you have no control over). Grandmas like that, computer experts don't. Now who do you think the public is mostly made up of? People who fall closer to computer experts or grandmas?
  - joecot 3y ago
    Open source projects are made and managed by software developers. Not by graphic designers, not by UI/UX experts. Developers will make something that works, that scratches their itch. But it can take years if not decades for a project to actually look polished, be easy for a casual computer user to use. For most open source projects, the way to contribute is "make a pull request", which usually involves more programming than a design person can or wants to contribute in order to make things look good. For a project to be user friendly, it needs people besides software developers working on it. See, for example, Mastodon and Lemmy. They're excellent federated social media, they should replace Twitter and reddit. But I heard someone say the word "Federated" at a bar last night while describing them, and I pegged them instantly as a software developer. Federation? Choosing an instance? Casual users glaze over. Without a dead simple onboarding process, they will never replace corporate social media. As a long time Ubuntu user, I get annoyed at the way they've moved towards kiddy proofing a number of things, but I can tell they're doing their best to make it usable by more casual computer users. It's still not 100% there, but it's way closer than it has been, and it's one of the most user friendly distros.

DrNosferatu 3y ago

Then I guess this will be the year of the Linux desktop…

nytesky 3y ago

I have a 2019 Microsoft Surface laptop which cost a pretty penny (bought it for the wife). It doesn’t support Windows 11, I think because of TPM. With end of life at 2025, I would have gotten about same life from a Chromebook which famously have expiration dates, for a fraction of the cost. Is there really no way to work around the missing hardware with virtualization? Apple supports processor changes for several version (I have an Intel and an M2 MacBook both running same software). What is the deal? Forget extending windows 10 — get Windows 11 working somehow.

goosedragons 3y ago
Are you sure its really not supported? You might have to enable the software TPM in the BIOS but if it has an 8th+ Gen Intel CPU as a 2019/2018 Surface Laptop should, you should be able to. Only the first Gen Surface laptop with 7th gen CPUs are technically unsupported. Its also not hard to bypass the TPM requirement.
- nytesky 3y ago
  How do you bypass when upgrading? I don’t want to buy another W11 license nor pirate. I’ll end up on Linux, but my wife will never touch it again.
  - goosedragons 3y ago
    You can do it by making an ISO with Rufus by changing the "image option".
rjst01 3y ago
I'm in the same boat, with a 2020 Surface Go. It's not a powerful machine but works just fine for taking notes and light browsing. I'm fine with it being stuck on Windows 10 - 11 would probably make it unusably slow - but when I purchased it I reasonably expected it to have similar longevity to the then 6 year old iPad it replaced.
- 3y ago