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> Yes, Hamas is committing atrocities. Yes, Israel is committing atrocities as well. NO! None of that crap. Israel isn't great as a democracy and its current

> Yes, Hamas is committing atrocities. Yes, Israel is committing atrocities as well. NO! None of that crap. Israel isn't great as a democracy and its current government is the absolute worst possible... It's still not in the "both" camp by a mile. It is held to a higher standard than the Hamas (as it should) and it is far "cleaner" in its bombing campaign than any recent western country (sure, mostly the USA). This is despite continued Hamas missiles against civilians and their holding of kidnapped children as young as 3 years of age! > Both sides have elements that seem to want to drive this conflict ever forward. No. The Hamas attacked. Up to that point Israel was increasing the number of Gazans allowed into Israel for work etc. Moving to relax hostilities. The Hamas has no interest in any movement towards civility or peace. There's literally no choice. The only way to finish this is to get every single Hamas operative. Otherwise this will happen again. Hopefully this will end up as good for the Palestinians and as part of a road for the moderates among them to rise. That's why Biden has spent a lot of time in Israel talking about the day after the war. That's very important and can be a good thing overall for both sides.

jacquesm 3y ago
Sorry but we will not be able to agree on that. Israel is committing atrocities, has committed countless human rights violations and has been the direct cause of the death of far more Palestinians than the reverse by an uncomfortably large factor. Ignoring that is effectively blocking any kind of solution. Palestinian blood is just as red as Israeli blood.
- invalidname 3y ago
  Israel did commit human rights violations. On most days I would be right there with you on that. But that's "what aboutism" in this particular case. I have Palestinian friends and people in Gaza. I feel terrible for them. But there's really no choice here. This is the point you're ignoring. Hamas is a cancer on the Palestinian people. It must be removed. It would be painful and probably result in many casualties on both sides. But it has proven that it will not rest until Israel is destroyed. No. Two wrongs don't make a right. Killing civilians while aiming at the Hamas is never "right". But letting the Hamas keep going is far worse than the alternative, it will embolden it further and it will kill far more.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    > Hamas is a cancer on the Palestinian people. You are seeing a cause, I'm seeing a symptom. > Killing civilians while aiming at the Hamas is never "right". Not only is it not right: it strengthens Hamas and will result in more anti-Israel sentiment in the rest of the world. "Look at what you made me do" doesn't work on that level. > But letting the Hamas keep going is far worse than the alternative, it will embolden it further and it will kill far more. Yes, agreed, Hamas should not be allowed to keep going. But for that to happen Israel too will need to make concessions and as long as both sides only think in terms of violence this will simply not stop. The idea that you can get rid of a terrorist organization by killing its members has been refuted many times over. Terrorist organizations disband because their cause has been invalidated and because the individual members lay down their arms. I can't recall a single terrorist organization that was forcibly erased and I'm sure you'll correct me if I am wrong about that. But all of the ones that come to mind over the last 40 years that stopped being active did so because they lost support, not because they were 'wiped out'. You kill a terrorist: another one steps into its place and the cycle will continue. And if you're lucky that's just one.
    - invalidname 3y ago
      > > Hamas is a cancer on the Palestinian people. > > You are seeing a cause, I'm seeing a symptom. Nonsense. There were two major Palestinian terrorist organizations. The PLO was the older and back in the day the more violent of the two. It was able to get over its aggression and come to a peace settlement with Israel who also put everything behind it. The Hamas blew up busses, cafes etc. Killed MANY civilians in suicide bombings and destroyed that peace. They were always an evil fanatical organization that doesn't care about their own peoples well being in favor of an extremist insane goal. > > Killing civilians while aiming at the Hamas is never "right". > > Not only is it not right: it strengthens Hamas and will result in more anti-Israel sentiment in the rest of the world. "Look at what you made me do" doesn't work on that level. On that I agree. I think Israel should better communicate how it is trying to avoid civilian casualties in this process. But yes, this is just terrible. > But for that to happen Israel too will need to make concessions and as long as both sides only think in terms of violence this will simply not stop. 100%. That's why I'm thankful for Biden. He was blamed for being too much "pro Israel" by idiots who don't understand his savvy. He was really hated in Israel who mostly loved Trump up until 3 weeks ago. This flipped overnight. Now he has deep control over the government and can use it both for humane aid and to guide the exit plan after. He understands the nuances deeply and is navigating them very well. It's still a pretty hard task. Eliminating the Hamas is hard. Eliminating the idea of the Hamas is impossible. Making it unpopular is a difficult but probably attainable goal.

jacquesm 3y ago

Sorry but we will not be able to agree on that. Israel is committing atrocities, has committed countless human rights violations and has been the direct cause of the death of far more Palestinians than the reverse by an uncomfortably large factor. Ignoring that is effectively blocking any kind of solution. Palestinian blood is just as red as Israeli blood.

invalidname 3y ago
Israel did commit human rights violations. On most days I would be right there with you on that. But that's "what aboutism" in this particular case. I have Palestinian friends and people in Gaza. I feel terrible for them. But there's really no choice here. This is the point you're ignoring. Hamas is a cancer on the Palestinian people. It must be removed. It would be painful and probably result in many casualties on both sides. But it has proven that it will not rest until Israel is destroyed. No. Two wrongs don't make a right. Killing civilians while aiming at the Hamas is never "right". But letting the Hamas keep going is far worse than the alternative, it will embolden it further and it will kill far more.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  > Hamas is a cancer on the Palestinian people. You are seeing a cause, I'm seeing a symptom. > Killing civilians while aiming at the Hamas is never "right". Not only is it not right: it strengthens Hamas and will result in more anti-Israel sentiment in the rest of the world. "Look at what you made me do" doesn't work on that level. > But letting the Hamas keep going is far worse than the alternative, it will embolden it further and it will kill far more. Yes, agreed, Hamas should not be allowed to keep going. But for that to happen Israel too will need to make concessions and as long as both sides only think in terms of violence this will simply not stop. The idea that you can get rid of a terrorist organization by killing its members has been refuted many times over. Terrorist organizations disband because their cause has been invalidated and because the individual members lay down their arms. I can't recall a single terrorist organization that was forcibly erased and I'm sure you'll correct me if I am wrong about that. But all of the ones that come to mind over the last 40 years that stopped being active did so because they lost support, not because they were 'wiped out'. You kill a terrorist: another one steps into its place and the cycle will continue. And if you're lucky that's just one.
  - invalidname 3y ago
    > > Hamas is a cancer on the Palestinian people. > > You are seeing a cause, I'm seeing a symptom. Nonsense. There were two major Palestinian terrorist organizations. The PLO was the older and back in the day the more violent of the two. It was able to get over its aggression and come to a peace settlement with Israel who also put everything behind it. The Hamas blew up busses, cafes etc. Killed MANY civilians in suicide bombings and destroyed that peace. They were always an evil fanatical organization that doesn't care about their own peoples well being in favor of an extremist insane goal. > > Killing civilians while aiming at the Hamas is never "right". > > Not only is it not right: it strengthens Hamas and will result in more anti-Israel sentiment in the rest of the world. "Look at what you made me do" doesn't work on that level. On that I agree. I think Israel should better communicate how it is trying to avoid civilian casualties in this process. But yes, this is just terrible. > But for that to happen Israel too will need to make concessions and as long as both sides only think in terms of violence this will simply not stop. 100%. That's why I'm thankful for Biden. He was blamed for being too much "pro Israel" by idiots who don't understand his savvy. He was really hated in Israel who mostly loved Trump up until 3 weeks ago. This flipped overnight. Now he has deep control over the government and can use it both for humane aid and to guide the exit plan after. He understands the nuances deeply and is navigating them very well. It's still a pretty hard task. Eliminating the Hamas is hard. Eliminating the idea of the Hamas is impossible. Making it unpopular is a difficult but probably attainable goal.