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I don't think this is true in general. Many people that support Israel are critical of Israeli policies in the west bank (including the US administration). I

by YZF 3y ago

I don't think this is true in general. Many people that support Israel are critical of Israeli policies in the west bank (including the US administration). I think there's a problem when you apply different standard to Jews vs. everyone else or are parroting some narrative that has anti-semitic aspects to it. For example, I would call people contesting the right of Israel to exist, despite many generations of Israelis living in that area, despite the UN's recognition of the state of Israel, and despite the historic connection of the Jewish people to that land (and there are ofcourse many non-Jewish Israelis which people tend to overlook), anti-semitic. If someone aligns themselves with this message, I would also tend to consider them anti-semitic. I would likely agree with much of your criticism of the west bank settlements and the behaviour of the settlers there and in general that is not anti-semitic. It's not black and white- there are many lies being propagated and there is are many truths that deserve criticism. Propagating lies about jews is basically what anti-semitism is all about and it is rampant.

jacquesm 3y ago
The bit that seems to have really pissed me off is when the Hawks decided that they didn't want peace and Rabin was murdered. We got that close to stopping this or at least to seriously de-escalating it. That's when I realized it's not just one side that wants this conflict to be perpetrated, there are elements on both sides that see their case strengthened the longer the conflict lasts and the more lives are lost. Both sides need to take care of their extremists. Otherwise this will just go on and on.
- YZF 3y ago
  There's extra context which is the suicide bombing campaign by Hamas after Rabin was murdered. That is the true cause of the collapse of the Oslo process and the shift in Israeli public opinion from the majority supporting a two state solution of some form to the the majority believing Israel can never co-exist with the Palestinian Arabs.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Yes, that's true, but that wasn't what killed Rabin. If Rabin had not been murdered I would have put a good chance on the Oslo process becoming ratified and that at least would have established some way of de-escalation. Just like in Northern Ireland: you need goodwill on both sides to make progress, regardless of what happened before. The fact that both of those conflicts are at the root religious conflicts is probably not a coincidence. Believing Israel can not co-exist with the Palestinian Arabs is as good as bankrupting the state of Israel or accepting eternal conflict, neither of which are good outcomes. This won't last.
    - YZF 3y ago
      This is a tough one. I don't think it's anything like Northern Ireland. Likely the only workable solution is a single state solution with some special protections for the Jewish people. Maybe a federation of some sorts. This is not going to happen in this generation. Given the demographics of the region I'm not sure it'll ever happen. Unfortunately the future looks bleak, more so for the Arabs, but really for everyone.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        I think we're pretty much in agreement here. But like you I don't see it happening soon and possibly not ever. My biggest fear is some dirty bomb attack on a large Israeli city. And all of this mess is just feeding into the pathways that may well enable such a thing to happen in the future, there is a lot to lose on both sides and the fanatics are only making things much, much worse.
catlover76 3y ago
I don't see how that poster is saying anything anti-semitic? His criticisms seem pretty practical and grounded in the reality of the situation. Personally, I don't think any country has the "right" to exist. Neither the Israelis nor Palestinians have any moral right to a country, and I think that the notion that "nations", which are often ahistorical fabrications, have the right to self-determination is bullshit.
- YZF 3y ago
  I didn't really say anything about the poster. I'm just trying to address the question and how Jews or Israelis likely look at this. I agree with you "right to exist" is bullshit. A country exists or doesn't exist and it may also cease to exist if it can't remain a country. That's about it.
  - catlover76 3y ago
    > I didn't really say anything about the poster. I'm just trying to address the question and how Jews or Israelis likely look at this. Oh, sorry I misunderstood.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    > Jews Not all Jews though.
pxc 3y ago
> For example, I would call people contesting the right of Israel to exist, despite many generations of Israelis living in that area, despite the UN's recognition of the state of Israel, and despite the historic connection of the Jewish people to that land (and there are ofcourse many non-Jewish Israelis which people tend to overlook), anti-semitic. If someone aligns themselves with this message, I would also tend to consider them anti-semitic. The 'right of Israel to exist' is the right to maintain (by force) a demographic majority created by mass expulsion because Israel is an ethnostate in which only one race has full civil rights. Allowing the right of return to Palestinian refugees and their descendants to the homes from which they have been expelled since 1948 is the negation of Israel's 'right to exist' because 'existence' here has nothing whatsoever to do with the existence or survival of Israeli citizens. There is absolutely nothing annihilationist (nor anti-Semitic) in denying Israel's 'right to exist'. Despite its pretensions to the contrary when convenient, Israel is not 'the Jewish state' and its people is not the Jewish people.

by YZF 3y ago

jacquesm 3y ago

The bit that seems to have really pissed me off is when the Hawks decided that they didn't want peace and Rabin was murdered. We got that close to stopping this or at least to seriously de-escalating it. That's when I realized it's not just one side that wants this conflict to be perpetrated, there are elements on both sides that see their case strengthened the longer the conflict lasts and the more lives are lost. Both sides need to take care of their extremists. Otherwise this will just go on and on.

YZF 3y ago
There's extra context which is the suicide bombing campaign by Hamas after Rabin was murdered. That is the true cause of the collapse of the Oslo process and the shift in Israeli public opinion from the majority supporting a two state solution of some form to the the majority believing Israel can never co-exist with the Palestinian Arabs.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Yes, that's true, but that wasn't what killed Rabin. If Rabin had not been murdered I would have put a good chance on the Oslo process becoming ratified and that at least would have established some way of de-escalation. Just like in Northern Ireland: you need goodwill on both sides to make progress, regardless of what happened before. The fact that both of those conflicts are at the root religious conflicts is probably not a coincidence. Believing Israel can not co-exist with the Palestinian Arabs is as good as bankrupting the state of Israel or accepting eternal conflict, neither of which are good outcomes. This won't last.
  - YZF 3y ago
    This is a tough one. I don't think it's anything like Northern Ireland. Likely the only workable solution is a single state solution with some special protections for the Jewish people. Maybe a federation of some sorts. This is not going to happen in this generation. Given the demographics of the region I'm not sure it'll ever happen. Unfortunately the future looks bleak, more so for the Arabs, but really for everyone.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      I think we're pretty much in agreement here. But like you I don't see it happening soon and possibly not ever. My biggest fear is some dirty bomb attack on a large Israeli city. And all of this mess is just feeding into the pathways that may well enable such a thing to happen in the future, there is a lot to lose on both sides and the fanatics are only making things much, much worse.

catlover76 3y ago

I don't see how that poster is saying anything anti-semitic? His criticisms seem pretty practical and grounded in the reality of the situation. Personally, I don't think any country has the "right" to exist. Neither the Israelis nor Palestinians have any moral right to a country, and I think that the notion that "nations", which are often ahistorical fabrications, have the right to self-determination is bullshit.

YZF 3y ago
I didn't really say anything about the poster. I'm just trying to address the question and how Jews or Israelis likely look at this. I agree with you "right to exist" is bullshit. A country exists or doesn't exist and it may also cease to exist if it can't remain a country. That's about it.
- catlover76 3y ago
  > I didn't really say anything about the poster. I'm just trying to address the question and how Jews or Israelis likely look at this. Oh, sorry I misunderstood.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  > Jews Not all Jews though.

pxc 3y ago

> For example, I would call people contesting the right of Israel to exist, despite many generations of Israelis living in that area, despite the UN's recognition of the state of Israel, and despite the historic connection of the Jewish people to that land (and there are ofcourse many non-Jewish Israelis which people tend to overlook), anti-semitic. If someone aligns themselves with this message, I would also tend to consider them anti-semitic. The 'right of Israel to exist' is the right to maintain (by force) a demographic majority created by mass expulsion because Israel is an ethnostate in which only one race has full civil rights. Allowing the right of return to Palestinian refugees and their descendants to the homes from which they have been expelled since 1948 is the negation of Israel's 'right to exist' because 'existence' here has nothing whatsoever to do with the existence or survival of Israeli citizens. There is absolutely nothing annihilationist (nor anti-Semitic) in denying Israel's 'right to exist'. Despite its pretensions to the contrary when convenient, Israel is not 'the Jewish state' and its people is not the Jewish people.