5 ms·

can you elaborate?

orionsbelt 3y ago
Israel has given repeated warnings for the north of Gaza to evacuate south for the past two weeks while Gaza has had internet. In addition, they have dropped leaflets all over the are stating the same thing.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  The only real problem is that there isn't anything to evacuate to and whatever they leave behind they'll lose forever.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
    "Israel didn't warn them." "Okay, they did, but it doesn't matter." Got it.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      I don't think I can follow your reasoning.
  - tyre 3y ago
    and bombing the roads and executing strikes on the fleeing civilians
  - invalidname 3y ago
    How is this Israels fault at this point? There are a lot of historic things that are its fault, but at this point the Hamas left it no choice whatsoever. It won't accept anything less than the destruction of Israel. It still holds kidnapped children and elderly civilians. It's still firing missiles into Israel as of today... The Palestinian people got squeezed in the middle because of that and it's terrible. What more can Israel do if the Hamas is willing to sacrifice its own civilians and literally places its headquarters under a hospital (which Israel didn't bomb).
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Yes, Hamas is committing atrocities. Yes, Israel is committing atrocities as well. Both sides have elements that seem to want to drive this conflict ever forward. You end this conflict without a way to control the extremist elements on both sides, and given that Hamas has - successfully, which they shouldn't have been able to do in the first place - attacked Israel and now Israel will respond with even more violence the only thing that will happen is that both sides' fanatics will gain a larger fraction of the population to support them. The opposite is what should be happening and Israel arguably has the strongest position in this conflict and also by far the most to lose.
      - invalidname 3y ago
        > Yes, Hamas is committing atrocities. Yes, Israel is committing atrocities as well. NO! None of that crap. Israel isn't great as a democracy and its current government is the absolute worst possible... It's still not in the "both" camp by a mile. It is held to a higher standard than the Hamas (as it should) and it is far "cleaner" in its bombing campaign than any recent western country (sure, mostly the USA). This is despite continued Hamas missiles against civilians and their holding of kidnapped children as young as 3 years of age! > Both sides have elements that seem to want to drive this conflict ever forward. No. The Hamas attacked. Up to that point Israel was increasing the number of Gazans allowed into Israel for work etc. Moving to relax hostilities. The Hamas has no interest in any movement towards civility or peace. There's literally no choice. The only way to finish this is to get every single Hamas operative. Otherwise this will happen again. Hopefully this will end up as good for the Palestinians and as part of a road for the moderates among them to rise. That's why Biden has spent a lot of time in Israel talking about the day after the war. That's very important and can be a good thing overall for both sides.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        Sorry but we will not be able to agree on that. Israel is committing atrocities, has committed countless human rights violations and has been the direct cause of the death of far more Palestinians than the reverse by an uncomfortably large factor. Ignoring that is effectively blocking any kind of solution. Palestinian blood is just as red as Israeli blood.
- solarpunk 3y ago
  excuse my naivete, but if they're giving two week notice about bombings, why even waste the ordinance?
  - yowzadave 3y ago
    Right, is the idea that it will be helpful to just make everybody homeless?
  - DoreenMichele 3y ago
    As another person who doesn't understand what's going on, I'm seeing articles that indicate they are effectively trying to drive people out and force them to leave and move to other countries and not come back and trying to use low cost tactics like telling them to evacuate to limit actual cost as well as international pushback. And some people are saying "That's a big fat nope."
    - invalidname 3y ago
      Historically in 1948 Palestinians left their home and due to ongoing wars were never able to come back. Effectively they lost their home. They're afraid this is happening again. Honestly, I don't know if it is or if it isn't. But what can Israel do here? Israel said the area they will target which puts its soldiers at risk. In the interest of avoiding civilian casualties. Israel already withdrew settlements from Gaza so the chances of this coming back is pretty slim. It's a pretty terrible situation for the Palestinian people and it's 100% the fault of Hamas. Unfortunately, if Israel won't destroy the Hamas now this will happen again and it will be worse.
      - DoreenMichele 3y ago
        Historically in 1948 Palestinians left their home and due to ongoing wars were never able to come back. Effectively they lost their home. They're afraid this is happening again. Yes, that's what I've been reading. Various nations do not want to welcome "temporary refugees" because they feel they've seen this before and it will not be temporary. There will be no going back if that option is accepted. I have no idea what "should" be done. I'm still trying to understand the situation. There are deep and bitter roots. All parties to the conflict have grievances and there are no obvious solutions to seemingly anyone, especially not some sort of win-win talking points solutions.
- tachyons 3y ago
  Except it was just a an eyewash, people tried to move got killed on the way, people also got murdered in the so called safe areas by Israel.
  - YZF 3y ago
    Do you have a breakdown of how many civilian casualties were in the north vs. south? And how many were killed on the way? Israel denies attacking anyone on the way. There was plenty of reporting showing people moving along the main arteries that were recommended and those look clear with no debris or any other evidence of attack. I'm aware of a single incident where it was claimed Israel attacked someone evacuating and this is still contested. Israel has never said it will not attack in the south of the Gaza strip. It just said the bulk of its operation will be in the north. It explicitly said it would go after military targets in the south as well.
    - tachyons 3y ago
      Take control over all water sources, electricity and disconnect it, ask people to leave their house without even enough food and destroy whatever they have gained during the life time. And still bomb them claiming that location they moved has military targets. https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/8/27/photos-palestinians-still-struggle-to-get-enough-water https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/8/27/photos-palestini... (pre Oct 7)
      - YZF 3y ago
        "Al Jazeera is a Qatari state-owned Arabic-language news television network" Excuse me if I'm not going to take that as a source. Israel only provided some fraction of water and electricity to Gaza and is under no obligation to keep providing that in a state of war. Do you have other examples of countries at war when one side provides the other with water and electricity? Look- you're right that Israel has asked people to leave everything behind and move. War sucks. I can't say I don't sympathize with those people, I do. You seem to have some emotional connection to this situation and I certainly do. I don't have any solutions unfortunately. Israelis have been pushed to the corner right now.
- user982 3y ago
  Israel then bombed south Gaza after herding the Palestinians there: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-attacking-south-gaza-after-telling-people-go-there-2023-10-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-atta...
  - invalidname 3y ago
    That misrepresents localized bombings on specific terrorist holdouts in the south. If you look at aerial photos published by the IDF you can clearly see the level of destruction on the north which is at a different scale. Despite that even the inflated numbers published by the Hamas don't correlate to the number of bombs. I think it was about 7k dead when Israel claims it threw 7k bombs on the area. That requires amazing precision and dedication, bombs are designed for mass killing. Yet even the inflated numbers show less than 1 casualty per bombing. Those numbers don't separate the number of actual combatants that were killed (as opposed to civilians). I'm not for bombing in general, I think it's a terrible weapon. But the ground invasion will probably kill a lot more civilians as it's harder to fight in narrow streets. Stray bullets and shelling kill a lot of innocent bystanders. Overall, Israel doesn't have a choice here. The Hamas is still holding civilian hostages. It is still firing missiles on civilian Israeli cities. It is the reason this is happening. I'm sorry for the Palestinian people but they will probably be better off without the Hamas.

can you elaborate?

Israel has given repeated warnings for the north of Gaza to evacuate south for the past two weeks while Gaza has had internet. In addition, they have dropped leaflets all over the are stating the same thing.

jacquesm 3y ago
The only real problem is that there isn't anything to evacuate to and whatever they leave behind they'll lose forever.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  "Israel didn't warn them." "Okay, they did, but it doesn't matter." Got it.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    I don't think I can follow your reasoning.
- tyre 3y ago
  and bombing the roads and executing strikes on the fleeing civilians
- invalidname 3y ago
  How is this Israels fault at this point? There are a lot of historic things that are its fault, but at this point the Hamas left it no choice whatsoever. It won't accept anything less than the destruction of Israel. It still holds kidnapped children and elderly civilians. It's still firing missiles into Israel as of today... The Palestinian people got squeezed in the middle because of that and it's terrible. What more can Israel do if the Hamas is willing to sacrifice its own civilians and literally places its headquarters under a hospital (which Israel didn't bomb).
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Yes, Hamas is committing atrocities. Yes, Israel is committing atrocities as well. Both sides have elements that seem to want to drive this conflict ever forward. You end this conflict without a way to control the extremist elements on both sides, and given that Hamas has - successfully, which they shouldn't have been able to do in the first place - attacked Israel and now Israel will respond with even more violence the only thing that will happen is that both sides' fanatics will gain a larger fraction of the population to support them. The opposite is what should be happening and Israel arguably has the strongest position in this conflict and also by far the most to lose.
    - invalidname 3y ago
      > Yes, Hamas is committing atrocities. Yes, Israel is committing atrocities as well. NO! None of that crap. Israel isn't great as a democracy and its current government is the absolute worst possible... It's still not in the "both" camp by a mile. It is held to a higher standard than the Hamas (as it should) and it is far "cleaner" in its bombing campaign than any recent western country (sure, mostly the USA). This is despite continued Hamas missiles against civilians and their holding of kidnapped children as young as 3 years of age! > Both sides have elements that seem to want to drive this conflict ever forward. No. The Hamas attacked. Up to that point Israel was increasing the number of Gazans allowed into Israel for work etc. Moving to relax hostilities. The Hamas has no interest in any movement towards civility or peace. There's literally no choice. The only way to finish this is to get every single Hamas operative. Otherwise this will happen again. Hopefully this will end up as good for the Palestinians and as part of a road for the moderates among them to rise. That's why Biden has spent a lot of time in Israel talking about the day after the war. That's very important and can be a good thing overall for both sides.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        Sorry but we will not be able to agree on that. Israel is committing atrocities, has committed countless human rights violations and has been the direct cause of the death of far more Palestinians than the reverse by an uncomfortably large factor. Ignoring that is effectively blocking any kind of solution. Palestinian blood is just as red as Israeli blood.
solarpunk 3y ago
excuse my naivete, but if they're giving two week notice about bombings, why even waste the ordinance?
- yowzadave 3y ago
  Right, is the idea that it will be helpful to just make everybody homeless?
- DoreenMichele 3y ago
  As another person who doesn't understand what's going on, I'm seeing articles that indicate they are effectively trying to drive people out and force them to leave and move to other countries and not come back and trying to use low cost tactics like telling them to evacuate to limit actual cost as well as international pushback. And some people are saying "That's a big fat nope."
  - invalidname 3y ago
    Historically in 1948 Palestinians left their home and due to ongoing wars were never able to come back. Effectively they lost their home. They're afraid this is happening again. Honestly, I don't know if it is or if it isn't. But what can Israel do here? Israel said the area they will target which puts its soldiers at risk. In the interest of avoiding civilian casualties. Israel already withdrew settlements from Gaza so the chances of this coming back is pretty slim. It's a pretty terrible situation for the Palestinian people and it's 100% the fault of Hamas. Unfortunately, if Israel won't destroy the Hamas now this will happen again and it will be worse.
    - DoreenMichele 3y ago
      Historically in 1948 Palestinians left their home and due to ongoing wars were never able to come back. Effectively they lost their home. They're afraid this is happening again. Yes, that's what I've been reading. Various nations do not want to welcome "temporary refugees" because they feel they've seen this before and it will not be temporary. There will be no going back if that option is accepted. I have no idea what "should" be done. I'm still trying to understand the situation. There are deep and bitter roots. All parties to the conflict have grievances and there are no obvious solutions to seemingly anyone, especially not some sort of win-win talking points solutions.
tachyons 3y ago
Except it was just a an eyewash, people tried to move got killed on the way, people also got murdered in the so called safe areas by Israel.
- YZF 3y ago
  Do you have a breakdown of how many civilian casualties were in the north vs. south? And how many were killed on the way? Israel denies attacking anyone on the way. There was plenty of reporting showing people moving along the main arteries that were recommended and those look clear with no debris or any other evidence of attack. I'm aware of a single incident where it was claimed Israel attacked someone evacuating and this is still contested. Israel has never said it will not attack in the south of the Gaza strip. It just said the bulk of its operation will be in the north. It explicitly said it would go after military targets in the south as well.
  - tachyons 3y ago
    Take control over all water sources, electricity and disconnect it, ask people to leave their house without even enough food and destroy whatever they have gained during the life time. And still bomb them claiming that location they moved has military targets. https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/8/27/photos-palestinians-still-struggle-to-get-enough-water https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/8/27/photos-palestini... (pre Oct 7)
    - YZF 3y ago
      "Al Jazeera is a Qatari state-owned Arabic-language news television network" Excuse me if I'm not going to take that as a source. Israel only provided some fraction of water and electricity to Gaza and is under no obligation to keep providing that in a state of war. Do you have other examples of countries at war when one side provides the other with water and electricity? Look- you're right that Israel has asked people to leave everything behind and move. War sucks. I can't say I don't sympathize with those people, I do. You seem to have some emotional connection to this situation and I certainly do. I don't have any solutions unfortunately. Israelis have been pushed to the corner right now.
user982 3y ago
Israel then bombed south Gaza after herding the Palestinians there: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-attacking-south-gaza-after-telling-people-go-there-2023-10-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-atta...
- invalidname 3y ago
  That misrepresents localized bombings on specific terrorist holdouts in the south. If you look at aerial photos published by the IDF you can clearly see the level of destruction on the north which is at a different scale. Despite that even the inflated numbers published by the Hamas don't correlate to the number of bombs. I think it was about 7k dead when Israel claims it threw 7k bombs on the area. That requires amazing precision and dedication, bombs are designed for mass killing. Yet even the inflated numbers show less than 1 casualty per bombing. Those numbers don't separate the number of actual combatants that were killed (as opposed to civilians). I'm not for bombing in general, I think it's a terrible weapon. But the ground invasion will probably kill a lot more civilians as it's harder to fight in narrow streets. Stray bullets and shelling kill a lot of innocent bystanders. Overall, Israel doesn't have a choice here. The Hamas is still holding civilian hostages. It is still firing missiles on civilian Israeli cities. It is the reason this is happening. I'm sorry for the Palestinian people but they will probably be better off without the Hamas.