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White American Evangelicals are insane, they think it is their religious obligation to support Israel no matter what as a precondition for the resurrection of J

White American Evangelicals are insane, they think it is their religious obligation to support Israel no matter what as a precondition for the resurrection of Jesus. White American Evangelicals are far more fanatical in their support of Israel than, for instance, American Jews. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/10/03/more-white-evangelicals-than-american-jews-say-god-gave-israel-to-the-jewish-people/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/10/03/more-whit... https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-evangelicals-and-israel/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-eva... https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/25/many-evangelicals-see-israel-hamas-war-as-part-of-a-prophecy/3d276994-7330-11ee-936d-7a16ee667359_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/25/many-evan... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/h... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

jacquesm 3y ago
I've noticed the same here in NL, so this isn't just limited to the USA. You're either for Israel or you're an anti-semite. The possibility that you question the validity of the way Israel deals with Palestinians (notably: the settlements, which are in my opinion an outrageous violation of human rights against the original inhabitants) while at the same time not having anything in particular against Jews is something that is too subtle for quite a few people. To the point that I no longer talk about the subject with people near me because it is just depressing.
- YZF 3y ago
  I don't think this is true in general. Many people that support Israel are critical of Israeli policies in the west bank (including the US administration). I think there's a problem when you apply different standard to Jews vs. everyone else or are parroting some narrative that has anti-semitic aspects to it. For example, I would call people contesting the right of Israel to exist, despite many generations of Israelis living in that area, despite the UN's recognition of the state of Israel, and despite the historic connection of the Jewish people to that land (and there are ofcourse many non-Jewish Israelis which people tend to overlook), anti-semitic. If someone aligns themselves with this message, I would also tend to consider them anti-semitic. I would likely agree with much of your criticism of the west bank settlements and the behaviour of the settlers there and in general that is not anti-semitic. It's not black and white- there are many lies being propagated and there is are many truths that deserve criticism. Propagating lies about jews is basically what anti-semitism is all about and it is rampant.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    The bit that seems to have really pissed me off is when the Hawks decided that they didn't want peace and Rabin was murdered. We got that close to stopping this or at least to seriously de-escalating it. That's when I realized it's not just one side that wants this conflict to be perpetrated, there are elements on both sides that see their case strengthened the longer the conflict lasts and the more lives are lost. Both sides need to take care of their extremists. Otherwise this will just go on and on.
    - YZF 3y ago
      There's extra context which is the suicide bombing campaign by Hamas after Rabin was murdered. That is the true cause of the collapse of the Oslo process and the shift in Israeli public opinion from the majority supporting a two state solution of some form to the the majority believing Israel can never co-exist with the Palestinian Arabs.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        Yes, that's true, but that wasn't what killed Rabin. If Rabin had not been murdered I would have put a good chance on the Oslo process becoming ratified and that at least would have established some way of de-escalation. Just like in Northern Ireland: you need goodwill on both sides to make progress, regardless of what happened before. The fact that both of those conflicts are at the root religious conflicts is probably not a coincidence. Believing Israel can not co-exist with the Palestinian Arabs is as good as bankrupting the state of Israel or accepting eternal conflict, neither of which are good outcomes. This won't last.
        YZF 3y ago
        This is a tough one. I don't think it's anything like Northern Ireland. Likely the only workable solution is a single state solution with some special protections for the Jewish people. Maybe a federation of some sorts. This is not going to happen in this generation. Given the demographics of the region I'm not sure it'll ever happen. Unfortunately the future looks bleak, more so for the Arabs, but really for everyone.
pseudo0 3y ago
Evangelicals vote 99% Republican, how does that explain unconditional support for Israel being the overwhelming bipartisan consensus in Washington? AIPAC and other Zionist lobbyist groups are massively influential, while equivalent pro-Palestinian groups are largely ignored. They can direct millions of dollars to primary congressmen who step out of line, or back their opponent in a swing district, and everyone knows it. The US singleminded support of Israel has cost an incredible amount of money and political capital, but it helps congressmen and senators get reelected and lines the pockets of defense contractors, so clearly it is keeping the right people happy.
UtopiaPunk 3y ago
White evangelical idealogy is definitely part of why the USA does what it does (I grew up in it and can vouch it is very real), but it's not the whole thing. The democratic party doesn't depend on white evangelicals as a voting block, but most democrat politicians are still very vocal in their support for Israel (with maybe some lip service about also sending aid to Palestine). The USA generally is unpopular in the Middle-east, but Israel is a very strong and strategic foothold in that part of the world for the USA. Likewise, Israel is also very unpopular in the region, so they welcome any resources they can get. With all that being the case, it is mutually beneficial for the two countries, especially militarily. And lest anyone misunderstand where I'm coming from, I believe almost anything that is beneficial to USA military interests is probably bad. Vox has a good high level summary of the history here: https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23916266/us-israel-support-ally-gaza-war-aid https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23916266/us-israel-suppor...

jacquesm 3y ago

I've noticed the same here in NL, so this isn't just limited to the USA. You're either for Israel or you're an anti-semite. The possibility that you question the validity of the way Israel deals with Palestinians (notably: the settlements, which are in my opinion an outrageous violation of human rights against the original inhabitants) while at the same time not having anything in particular against Jews is something that is too subtle for quite a few people. To the point that I no longer talk about the subject with people near me because it is just depressing.

YZF 3y ago
I don't think this is true in general. Many people that support Israel are critical of Israeli policies in the west bank (including the US administration). I think there's a problem when you apply different standard to Jews vs. everyone else or are parroting some narrative that has anti-semitic aspects to it. For example, I would call people contesting the right of Israel to exist, despite many generations of Israelis living in that area, despite the UN's recognition of the state of Israel, and despite the historic connection of the Jewish people to that land (and there are ofcourse many non-Jewish Israelis which people tend to overlook), anti-semitic. If someone aligns themselves with this message, I would also tend to consider them anti-semitic. I would likely agree with much of your criticism of the west bank settlements and the behaviour of the settlers there and in general that is not anti-semitic. It's not black and white- there are many lies being propagated and there is are many truths that deserve criticism. Propagating lies about jews is basically what anti-semitism is all about and it is rampant.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  The bit that seems to have really pissed me off is when the Hawks decided that they didn't want peace and Rabin was murdered. We got that close to stopping this or at least to seriously de-escalating it. That's when I realized it's not just one side that wants this conflict to be perpetrated, there are elements on both sides that see their case strengthened the longer the conflict lasts and the more lives are lost. Both sides need to take care of their extremists. Otherwise this will just go on and on.
  - YZF 3y ago
    There's extra context which is the suicide bombing campaign by Hamas after Rabin was murdered. That is the true cause of the collapse of the Oslo process and the shift in Israeli public opinion from the majority supporting a two state solution of some form to the the majority believing Israel can never co-exist with the Palestinian Arabs.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Yes, that's true, but that wasn't what killed Rabin. If Rabin had not been murdered I would have put a good chance on the Oslo process becoming ratified and that at least would have established some way of de-escalation. Just like in Northern Ireland: you need goodwill on both sides to make progress, regardless of what happened before. The fact that both of those conflicts are at the root religious conflicts is probably not a coincidence. Believing Israel can not co-exist with the Palestinian Arabs is as good as bankrupting the state of Israel or accepting eternal conflict, neither of which are good outcomes. This won't last.
      - YZF 3y ago
        This is a tough one. I don't think it's anything like Northern Ireland. Likely the only workable solution is a single state solution with some special protections for the Jewish people. Maybe a federation of some sorts. This is not going to happen in this generation. Given the demographics of the region I'm not sure it'll ever happen. Unfortunately the future looks bleak, more so for the Arabs, but really for everyone.

pseudo0 3y ago

Evangelicals vote 99% Republican, how does that explain unconditional support for Israel being the overwhelming bipartisan consensus in Washington? AIPAC and other Zionist lobbyist groups are massively influential, while equivalent pro-Palestinian groups are largely ignored. They can direct millions of dollars to primary congressmen who step out of line, or back their opponent in a swing district, and everyone knows it. The US singleminded support of Israel has cost an incredible amount of money and political capital, but it helps congressmen and senators get reelected and lines the pockets of defense contractors, so clearly it is keeping the right people happy.

UtopiaPunk 3y ago

White evangelical idealogy is definitely part of why the USA does what it does (I grew up in it and can vouch it is very real), but it's not the whole thing. The democratic party doesn't depend on white evangelicals as a voting block, but most democrat politicians are still very vocal in their support for Israel (with maybe some lip service about also sending aid to Palestine). The USA generally is unpopular in the Middle-east, but Israel is a very strong and strategic foothold in that part of the world for the USA. Likewise, Israel is also very unpopular in the region, so they welcome any resources they can get. With all that being the case, it is mutually beneficial for the two countries, especially militarily. And lest anyone misunderstand where I'm coming from, I believe almost anything that is beneficial to USA military interests is probably bad. Vox has a good high level summary of the history here: https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23916266/us-israel-support-ally-gaza-war-aid https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23916266/us-israel-suppor...