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> It's impossible to have that many soldiers without widespread support. Maybe not a majority. But certainly a significant minority. Israel wanted Hamas to ru

> It's impossible to have that many soldiers without widespread support. Maybe not a majority. But certainly a significant minority. Israel wanted Hamas to rule Gaza though and supported it financially while working against moderate Palestinians: > Netanyahu said: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas, ... This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-gaza-war-history https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-ga... This means that this attacks of Hamas by Israel is unlikely to lead to a better situation post war, because Netanyahu's position is to always have a reason why the Palestinians should not have freedom. It is more likely that things just get worse for the Palestinians after this war.

petertodd 3y ago
[flagged]
- bhouston 3y ago
  Peter Todd wrote: > That does not change the fact that Hamas does have widespread support! I already linked you this survey that showed that Hamas doesn't have widespread support: https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/1718007927556964511 https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/171800792755696451... > If Israel did nothing other than kill the ~40,000 Hamas soldiers, along with destroying military and economic infrastructure, they'll easily buy themselves another 10 years of relative safety. At which point they can do it all over again. Oh, okay. You are fine with just repeatedly bombing a captive population. It takes all kinds I guess.
  - petertodd 3y ago
    > I already linked you this survey that showed that Hamas doesn't have widespread support You're survey shows frustration with ineffective governance. There are lots of governments out there that people are frustrated with, yet still support. > Oh, okay. You are fine with just repeatedly bombing a captive population. It takes all kinds I guess. I'm not fine with it. But that doesn't change the fact that from Israeli's point of view, it is a better option than doing nothing. Allowing Hamas to conduct another massacre in the future is unacceptable. It's also unacceptable to allow Hamas to continue to rain down missiles on Israel - they're still launching them into Israel every single day.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      So, let's for a moment assume that Israel is successful in eradicating all of Hamas. Unlikely, but for the sake of the argument let's assume that it works. Then, two days later they kick a bunch of Palestinians out of their homes and bulldoze it, hand the land to a bunch of settlers. What's to stop a new Hamas to rise again?
      - petertodd 3y ago
        > Then, two days later they kick a bunch of Palestinians out of their homes and bulldoze it, hand the land to a bunch of settlers. There aren't settlers in Gaza. There are in West Bank, and in the West Bank those settlers do in fact illegally and immorally force West Bank Palestinians from their land. On occasion settlers also murder them. But in Gaza the Israeli government forced all the Jews in Gaza to leave when Israel deoccupied Gaza in 2005. > What's to stop a new Hamas to rise again? Like it or not, Israel can easily get another 10 years or so of relative safely even if Hamas rises again simply by blockading Gaza after a successful military operation to exterminate Hamas. Which is a better outcome for Israel than the status quo, where Hamas will likely conduct another massacre of Israeli's in the near future. Not to mention, continue to launch rockets into Israel.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        > There aren't settlers in Gaza. I didn't say the settlement was in Gaza. These things are not as disconnected as you seem to believe. > There are in West Bank, and in the West Bank those settlers do in fact illegally and immorally force West Bank Palestinians from their land. And what is exactly being done about this? > On occasion settlers also murder them. And what is being done about that? > But in Gaza the Israeli government forced all the Jews in Gaza to leave when Israel deoccupied Gaza in 2005. They not only forced them to leave: they also demolished the buildings they left behind. > Like it or not, Israel can easily get another 10 years or so of relative safely even if Hamas rises again simply by blockading Gaza after a successful military operation to exterminate Hamas. 10 years is nothing and again, this is the sort of thinking that keeps on fueling this conflict: you don't need a solution for 10 years, you need one that actually works. And killing large numbers of people rarely solves problems. If anything history should have taught us that. > Which is a better outcome for Israel than the status quo, where Hamas will likely conduct another massacre of Israeli's in the near future. They just might: now what could Israel possibly do to stop that from happening? If the answer is 'nothing' then it's really just a matter of time. Rabin had the right idea: de-escalate and normalize. All this ego and religion driven talk of supremacy, god given rights and violence has to stop. Realize that Hamas or its future replacement will use what happens today as their most successful recruiting drive ever. The #1 goal should be to stop that recruiting drive, not to deal with Hamas in the present in strictly military terms. But for that to happen Israel would need to address some of its own faults. Fat chance of that happening in the current situation though and so I've already more or less accepted that this conflict will last for another century or so.

petertodd 3y ago

[flagged]

bhouston 3y ago
Peter Todd wrote: > That does not change the fact that Hamas does have widespread support! I already linked you this survey that showed that Hamas doesn't have widespread support: https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/1718007927556964511 https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/171800792755696451... > If Israel did nothing other than kill the ~40,000 Hamas soldiers, along with destroying military and economic infrastructure, they'll easily buy themselves another 10 years of relative safety. At which point they can do it all over again. Oh, okay. You are fine with just repeatedly bombing a captive population. It takes all kinds I guess.
- petertodd 3y ago
  > I already linked you this survey that showed that Hamas doesn't have widespread support You're survey shows frustration with ineffective governance. There are lots of governments out there that people are frustrated with, yet still support. > Oh, okay. You are fine with just repeatedly bombing a captive population. It takes all kinds I guess. I'm not fine with it. But that doesn't change the fact that from Israeli's point of view, it is a better option than doing nothing. Allowing Hamas to conduct another massacre in the future is unacceptable. It's also unacceptable to allow Hamas to continue to rain down missiles on Israel - they're still launching them into Israel every single day.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    So, let's for a moment assume that Israel is successful in eradicating all of Hamas. Unlikely, but for the sake of the argument let's assume that it works. Then, two days later they kick a bunch of Palestinians out of their homes and bulldoze it, hand the land to a bunch of settlers. What's to stop a new Hamas to rise again?
    - petertodd 3y ago
      > Then, two days later they kick a bunch of Palestinians out of their homes and bulldoze it, hand the land to a bunch of settlers. There aren't settlers in Gaza. There are in West Bank, and in the West Bank those settlers do in fact illegally and immorally force West Bank Palestinians from their land. On occasion settlers also murder them. But in Gaza the Israeli government forced all the Jews in Gaza to leave when Israel deoccupied Gaza in 2005. > What's to stop a new Hamas to rise again? Like it or not, Israel can easily get another 10 years or so of relative safely even if Hamas rises again simply by blockading Gaza after a successful military operation to exterminate Hamas. Which is a better outcome for Israel than the status quo, where Hamas will likely conduct another massacre of Israeli's in the near future. Not to mention, continue to launch rockets into Israel.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        > There aren't settlers in Gaza. I didn't say the settlement was in Gaza. These things are not as disconnected as you seem to believe. > There are in West Bank, and in the West Bank those settlers do in fact illegally and immorally force West Bank Palestinians from their land. And what is exactly being done about this? > On occasion settlers also murder them. And what is being done about that? > But in Gaza the Israeli government forced all the Jews in Gaza to leave when Israel deoccupied Gaza in 2005. They not only forced them to leave: they also demolished the buildings they left behind. > Like it or not, Israel can easily get another 10 years or so of relative safely even if Hamas rises again simply by blockading Gaza after a successful military operation to exterminate Hamas. 10 years is nothing and again, this is the sort of thinking that keeps on fueling this conflict: you don't need a solution for 10 years, you need one that actually works. And killing large numbers of people rarely solves problems. If anything history should have taught us that. > Which is a better outcome for Israel than the status quo, where Hamas will likely conduct another massacre of Israeli's in the near future. They just might: now what could Israel possibly do to stop that from happening? If the answer is 'nothing' then it's really just a matter of time. Rabin had the right idea: de-escalate and normalize. All this ego and religion driven talk of supremacy, god given rights and violence has to stop. Realize that Hamas or its future replacement will use what happens today as their most successful recruiting drive ever. The #1 goal should be to stop that recruiting drive, not to deal with Hamas in the present in strictly military terms. But for that to happen Israel would need to address some of its own faults. Fat chance of that happening in the current situation though and so I've already more or less accepted that this conflict will last for another century or so.