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> Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. This number comes from Hamas, so I would take it with a grain of salt. Ha

> Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. This number comes from Hamas, so I would take it with a grain of salt. Hamas intentionally uses its civilians as shields for their military equipment. Here is a quote from Hamas's 1988 charter: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." [1] [1] https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

culi 3y ago
It's the Health Ministry in Gaza and they've released the exact names of all 6,747 people they could account for. The UN said just 5 days ago that the figure was 5k. Given the increase in intensity 7k does not at all seem unreasonable to me https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142687 https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142687
- Danidin 3y ago
  "Health Ministry in Gaza" literally the health ministry of Hamas. Why would such organization lie? /s
  - culi 3y ago
    The UN estimated 5k 5 days ago.
  - shihab 3y ago
    1. Hamas says over 7,300 killed in war; UN backs toll [1] 2. Despite Biden's doubts, humanitarian agencies consider Gaza toll reliable [2] [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-says-over-7300-killed-in-war-un-backs-toll/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-says-over... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-dou...
  - bhouston 3y ago
    Danidin wrote: > "Health Ministry in Gaza" literally the health ministry of Hamas. Why would such organization lie? This is language that justifies death, by minimizing it. There are likely not perfect, but in the past numbers from the Gaza health ministry haven't been wildly wrong: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-dou...
  - arp242 3y ago
    As I understand it, historically it's been fairly accurate and reliable. Does this guarantee they're accurate today? No. Do I blindly trust anything that's being said? No. But merely "it's Hamas, therefore the figures are false" also doesn't really cut it. See e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-casualty-figures-from-the-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-c...
    - djaro 3y ago
      A week ago, when Hamas dropped a rocket on THEIR OWN hospital, the "Health Ministry" said Israel killed 500 people. Despite it not being Israel, and it not killing 500 people. They are just straight up lying
      - culi 3y ago
        Hamas did not drop a rocket on a Gazan hospital. Not even Israel said that. And the case is still under investigation. No honest person could claim there's without a doubt enough evidence to accuse a specific party
      - MisterBastahrd 3y ago
        What nonsense. You could sit 500 people directly on top of one of those Hamas rockets, detonate it, and it wouldn't kill 500 people. Those people are not dealing with state of the art military equipment.
      - arp242 3y ago
        No one claims that's what happened; there are claims that a misfire from Palestinian Islamic Jihad caused the explosion. This seems entirely plausible, perhaps even likely, but as of yet it's not 100% clear. Absolutely no one suggest that it was somehow an intentional attack on their own people. Could just have been some yahoos firing a rocket from the bushes and getting it wrong, and that Hamas has just as much information as the rest of us do. That is, basically this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESOhN-SaH-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESOhN-SaH-s
      - megous 3y ago
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
bhouston 3y ago
paulvnickerson wrote: > This number comes from Hamas, so I would take it with a grain of salt. Hamas intentionally uses its civilians as shields for their military equipment. Both of these statements are spreading FUD around death numbers that most people in the know believe are accurate: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-dou.... It isn't a great look for you.
- YZF 3y ago
  How can there be "most people in the know" when the Gaza strip is under the tight grip of Hamas? Israel has always published all the details of all causalities in all the conflicts, civilian and military. Hamas never did until this new list and has never broken the numbers by combatant vs. civilian. Who and how exactly verifies those numbers? Your link even says: "International groups, even some operating in Gaza, and global media including Reuters are not able to verify the figures but reporters have seen large numbers of bodies.". Hamas is motivated to inflate this number to make Israel look bad. You have to be incredibly naive to think they're above that. Maybe they do it a little, maybe they do it a lot. Why are we even playing this numbers game in the first place?
  - bhouston 3y ago
    YZF wrote: > How can there be "most people in the know" when the Gaza strip is under the tight grip of Hamas? If you read the article is says that in past conflicts Gaza Health Ministry numbers were within 10% of Israel reported numbers. In the past there haven't been issues with the numbers being wrong. > Why are we even playing this numbers game in the first place? I am unsure. It is quite likely that there is a massive amount of death in Gaza, more after this evening. I think those spreading FUD about the numbers are trying to minimize what is going on, sort of a way of deflecting guilt about it. Some people say that the numbers are not real, others say that Hamas brought it upon the civilians, or others say that all civilians are responsible since they didn't over throw Hamas, etc. All I know is that it will probably get worse.
hackerlight 3y ago
Historically, the Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza has provided accurate numbers of civilian deaths. Third-party estimates by the UN and NGOs have always matched their numbers within a 10% margin of error. They did lie about 500 people dying due to a parking lot being blown up, though. It's a stain on their credibility. But how much of a stain? Do we disregard their previous track record because of it? I mean, it's possible that they see this current moment as judgement day, so they have decided to use up all of their historically built-up goodwill and start lying for info ops purposes, which would be an understandable strategy. On the other hand, the numbers they're giving don't appear unrealistic, and John Kirby has said that the US does not dispute that it's "in the thousands". So some number between 1000 and 7000 appears correct, and I would err more towards 4000-7000.
megous 3y ago
That document is outdated. And you may read some books about Hamas to get some context about that document, if you like. Here's a more uptodate charter: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full

culi 3y ago

It's the Health Ministry in Gaza and they've released the exact names of all 6,747 people they could account for. The UN said just 5 days ago that the figure was 5k. Given the increase in intensity 7k does not at all seem unreasonable to me https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142687 https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142687

Danidin 3y ago
"Health Ministry in Gaza" literally the health ministry of Hamas. Why would such organization lie? /s
- culi 3y ago
  The UN estimated 5k 5 days ago.
- shihab 3y ago
  1. Hamas says over 7,300 killed in war; UN backs toll [1] 2. Despite Biden's doubts, humanitarian agencies consider Gaza toll reliable [2] [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-says-over-7300-killed-in-war-un-backs-toll/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-says-over... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-dou...
- bhouston 3y ago
  Danidin wrote: > "Health Ministry in Gaza" literally the health ministry of Hamas. Why would such organization lie? This is language that justifies death, by minimizing it. There are likely not perfect, but in the past numbers from the Gaza health ministry haven't been wildly wrong: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-dou...
- arp242 3y ago
  As I understand it, historically it's been fairly accurate and reliable. Does this guarantee they're accurate today? No. Do I blindly trust anything that's being said? No. But merely "it's Hamas, therefore the figures are false" also doesn't really cut it. See e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-casualty-figures-from-the-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-c...
  - djaro 3y ago
    A week ago, when Hamas dropped a rocket on THEIR OWN hospital, the "Health Ministry" said Israel killed 500 people. Despite it not being Israel, and it not killing 500 people. They are just straight up lying
    - culi 3y ago
      Hamas did not drop a rocket on a Gazan hospital. Not even Israel said that. And the case is still under investigation. No honest person could claim there's without a doubt enough evidence to accuse a specific party
    - MisterBastahrd 3y ago
      What nonsense. You could sit 500 people directly on top of one of those Hamas rockets, detonate it, and it wouldn't kill 500 people. Those people are not dealing with state of the art military equipment.
    - arp242 3y ago
      No one claims that's what happened; there are claims that a misfire from Palestinian Islamic Jihad caused the explosion. This seems entirely plausible, perhaps even likely, but as of yet it's not 100% clear. Absolutely no one suggest that it was somehow an intentional attack on their own people. Could just have been some yahoos firing a rocket from the bushes and getting it wrong, and that Hamas has just as much information as the rest of us do. That is, basically this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESOhN-SaH-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESOhN-SaH-s
    - megous 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

bhouston 3y ago

paulvnickerson wrote: > This number comes from Hamas, so I would take it with a grain of salt. Hamas intentionally uses its civilians as shields for their military equipment. Both of these statements are spreading FUD around death numbers that most people in the know believe are accurate: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-dou.... It isn't a great look for you.

YZF 3y ago
How can there be "most people in the know" when the Gaza strip is under the tight grip of Hamas? Israel has always published all the details of all causalities in all the conflicts, civilian and military. Hamas never did until this new list and has never broken the numbers by combatant vs. civilian. Who and how exactly verifies those numbers? Your link even says: "International groups, even some operating in Gaza, and global media including Reuters are not able to verify the figures but reporters have seen large numbers of bodies.". Hamas is motivated to inflate this number to make Israel look bad. You have to be incredibly naive to think they're above that. Maybe they do it a little, maybe they do it a lot. Why are we even playing this numbers game in the first place?
- bhouston 3y ago
  YZF wrote: > How can there be "most people in the know" when the Gaza strip is under the tight grip of Hamas? If you read the article is says that in past conflicts Gaza Health Ministry numbers were within 10% of Israel reported numbers. In the past there haven't been issues with the numbers being wrong. > Why are we even playing this numbers game in the first place? I am unsure. It is quite likely that there is a massive amount of death in Gaza, more after this evening. I think those spreading FUD about the numbers are trying to minimize what is going on, sort of a way of deflecting guilt about it. Some people say that the numbers are not real, others say that Hamas brought it upon the civilians, or others say that all civilians are responsible since they didn't over throw Hamas, etc. All I know is that it will probably get worse.

hackerlight 3y ago

Historically, the Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza has provided accurate numbers of civilian deaths. Third-party estimates by the UN and NGOs have always matched their numbers within a 10% margin of error. They did lie about 500 people dying due to a parking lot being blown up, though. It's a stain on their credibility. But how much of a stain? Do we disregard their previous track record because of it? I mean, it's possible that they see this current moment as judgement day, so they have decided to use up all of their historically built-up goodwill and start lying for info ops purposes, which would be an understandable strategy. On the other hand, the numbers they're giving don't appear unrealistic, and John Kirby has said that the US does not dispute that it's "in the thousands". So some number between 1000 and 7000 appears correct, and I would err more towards 4000-7000.

megous 3y ago

That document is outdated. And you may read some books about Hamas to get some context about that document, if you like. Here's a more uptodate charter: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full