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> have outright called for retribution When Israel invaded Gaza in 2014 they killed 2,310 people. 70% were civilians. In return they lost only 67 soldiers. The

by culi 3y ago

> have outright called for retribution When Israel invaded Gaza in 2014 they killed 2,310 people. 70% were civilians. In return they lost only 67 soldiers. They also destroyed 7-10k homes and damaged 87k other homes. Between 2005-2008, 1,754 Palestinians and 117 Israelis have lost their lives due to the ongoing occupation. Between 2008-2023 2,329 more Palestinians and 308 more Israeli people lost their lives. The vast majority of Israeli casualties are soldiers and the vast majority of Palestinian casualties are civilian. Now in the span of just a few days Israel has killed over 7k more Palestinians. This isn't "retribution". This is an ongoing genocide. One which the UN has tried to intercede OVER and OVER and OVER again but always fails. Despite almost every single country in the UN voting on the side of Palestine there is one country that ensures Israel is never held accountable for its war crimes: the United States. Between 1954 and 2023 the US has used its Veto power to strike down 34 resolutions relating to Palestine and Israel. Resolutions that the entire rest of the world's countries supports. Resolutions that could've stopped or significantly reduced this ongoing bloodshed

whoknowsidont 3y ago
[flagged]
mcpackieh 3y ago
White American Evangelicals are insane, they think it is their religious obligation to support Israel no matter what as a precondition for the resurrection of Jesus. White American Evangelicals are far more fanatical in their support of Israel than, for instance, American Jews. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/10/03/more-white-evangelicals-than-american-jews-say-god-gave-israel-to-the-jewish-people/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/10/03/more-whit... https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-evangelicals-and-israel/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-eva... https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/25/many-evangelicals-see-israel-hamas-war-as-part-of-a-prophecy/3d276994-7330-11ee-936d-7a16ee667359_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/25/many-evan... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/h... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism
- jacquesm 3y ago
  I've noticed the same here in NL, so this isn't just limited to the USA. You're either for Israel or you're an anti-semite. The possibility that you question the validity of the way Israel deals with Palestinians (notably: the settlements, which are in my opinion an outrageous violation of human rights against the original inhabitants) while at the same time not having anything in particular against Jews is something that is too subtle for quite a few people. To the point that I no longer talk about the subject with people near me because it is just depressing.
  - YZF 3y ago
    I don't think this is true in general. Many people that support Israel are critical of Israeli policies in the west bank (including the US administration). I think there's a problem when you apply different standard to Jews vs. everyone else or are parroting some narrative that has anti-semitic aspects to it. For example, I would call people contesting the right of Israel to exist, despite many generations of Israelis living in that area, despite the UN's recognition of the state of Israel, and despite the historic connection of the Jewish people to that land (and there are ofcourse many non-Jewish Israelis which people tend to overlook), anti-semitic. If someone aligns themselves with this message, I would also tend to consider them anti-semitic. I would likely agree with much of your criticism of the west bank settlements and the behaviour of the settlers there and in general that is not anti-semitic. It's not black and white- there are many lies being propagated and there is are many truths that deserve criticism. Propagating lies about jews is basically what anti-semitism is all about and it is rampant.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      The bit that seems to have really pissed me off is when the Hawks decided that they didn't want peace and Rabin was murdered. We got that close to stopping this or at least to seriously de-escalating it. That's when I realized it's not just one side that wants this conflict to be perpetrated, there are elements on both sides that see their case strengthened the longer the conflict lasts and the more lives are lost. Both sides need to take care of their extremists. Otherwise this will just go on and on.
edanm 3y ago
> When Israel invaded Gaza in 2014 they killed 2,310 people. 70% were civilians. In return they lost only 67 soldiers. They also destroyed 7-10k homes and damaged 87k other homes. You say "in return" 67 soldiers died. That's not how any of this works. In conflict, you try to kill as many of the enemy soldiers as you can, while getting the least amount of death on your side as possible. You're not trading some number of kills until everyone is even. More Palestinian civilians die because the Israeli military is far stronger than the Palestinian's "soldiers", and because Hamas uses human shields. > Now in the span of just a few days Israel has killed over 7k more Palestinians. This isn't "retribution". This is an ongoing genocide Please, I've asked this of many people - in what sense is this a genocide? Provide some definition of genocide that this falls under. There is none, because this isn't a genocide. Israel's goal is not the eradication of Palestinians. It never has been. The way we know this is that the Palestinian population has basically doubled in the last 50 years. And despite the terrible, terrible civilian cost on the Palestinian side (which is horrible, and which any decent person should be appalled at), the amount of dead in Palestine is basically a tiny blip compared to any other conflict in the world, including several going on right now. Any dead civilian is too much, but the amount of dead in Palestine is just the opposite of indicating a genocide. But like I asked, if you have a different way of thinking about this, please, tell me what you mean when you say there's an ongoing genocide.
- hbt 3y ago
  a blockade of food, water and electricity, all crucial, especially when you are confined in a small area with low resources and a lot of people is a genocide. combine it with a bombing campaign that is indiscriminately targeting civilians and their infrastructure, from internet to hospitals is a war crime. keep in mind the blockade and hindering the economic development of Gaza is not new. there is no such thing as eradicating hamas because Israel and its policies are a recruitment tool. This conflict will continue and the children today will be fighting in a few years because what choice do they have than resist. The palestinians don't hide that their high fertility rate is politically motivated and have structured their society to marry young and have a lot of children as it is an act of Resistance. not all children make it, the malnutrition rate was around 15%. again, all caused by Israel as they have control major aspects of that open air prison. I think if you are shooting fish in a barrel and the international community lets you do it, you don't get to complain about the splashes and you certainly shouldn't be claiming the moral high ground. no matter how much the politicians or corporate mainstream media keep repeating it, Israel and its apartheid genocidal policies don't have international support.
john004 3y ago
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HDThoreaun 3y ago
I don't see the logic in blaming Israel for having a more competent military. Both sides are trying to kill people on the other side, palestine and Hamas are just incompetent and under resourced.
pxc 3y ago
> Now in the span of just a few days Israel has killed over 7k more Palestinians. This isn't "retribution". This is an ongoing genocide. It is impossible to look at this blackout, especially knowing Israel's history of covering up and reading their war crimes since before the foundation of the state (see: the Katz controversy and the massacre of Tantura), and not think that its purpose is to minimize the images and information coming out of Gaza so that Israel can conduct its genocide in the dark. The voices of Palestinians do not count, especially when they are only telling eyewitness accounts (see, again, the Katz controversy). When it comes to Israeli war crimes, only documentary evidence presented by (and ideally curated from) Israeli voices seems to reliably count. Whatever happens in the next few days, surviving Gazans will doubtless remember. But to the rest of the world, and to history, much of it will be 'lost'.

by culi 3y ago

whoknowsidont 3y ago

[flagged]

mcpackieh 3y ago

White American Evangelicals are insane, they think it is their religious obligation to support Israel no matter what as a precondition for the resurrection of Jesus. White American Evangelicals are far more fanatical in their support of Israel than, for instance, American Jews. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/10/03/more-white-evangelicals-than-american-jews-say-god-gave-israel-to-the-jewish-people/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/10/03/more-whit... https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-evangelicals-and-israel/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-eva... https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/25/many-evangelicals-see-israel-hamas-war-as-part-of-a-prophecy/3d276994-7330-11ee-936d-7a16ee667359_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/25/many-evan... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/h... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

jacquesm 3y ago
I've noticed the same here in NL, so this isn't just limited to the USA. You're either for Israel or you're an anti-semite. The possibility that you question the validity of the way Israel deals with Palestinians (notably: the settlements, which are in my opinion an outrageous violation of human rights against the original inhabitants) while at the same time not having anything in particular against Jews is something that is too subtle for quite a few people. To the point that I no longer talk about the subject with people near me because it is just depressing.
- YZF 3y ago
  I don't think this is true in general. Many people that support Israel are critical of Israeli policies in the west bank (including the US administration). I think there's a problem when you apply different standard to Jews vs. everyone else or are parroting some narrative that has anti-semitic aspects to it. For example, I would call people contesting the right of Israel to exist, despite many generations of Israelis living in that area, despite the UN's recognition of the state of Israel, and despite the historic connection of the Jewish people to that land (and there are ofcourse many non-Jewish Israelis which people tend to overlook), anti-semitic. If someone aligns themselves with this message, I would also tend to consider them anti-semitic. I would likely agree with much of your criticism of the west bank settlements and the behaviour of the settlers there and in general that is not anti-semitic. It's not black and white- there are many lies being propagated and there is are many truths that deserve criticism. Propagating lies about jews is basically what anti-semitism is all about and it is rampant.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    The bit that seems to have really pissed me off is when the Hawks decided that they didn't want peace and Rabin was murdered. We got that close to stopping this or at least to seriously de-escalating it. That's when I realized it's not just one side that wants this conflict to be perpetrated, there are elements on both sides that see their case strengthened the longer the conflict lasts and the more lives are lost. Both sides need to take care of their extremists. Otherwise this will just go on and on.

edanm 3y ago

> When Israel invaded Gaza in 2014 they killed 2,310 people. 70% were civilians. In return they lost only 67 soldiers. They also destroyed 7-10k homes and damaged 87k other homes. You say "in return" 67 soldiers died. That's not how any of this works. In conflict, you try to kill as many of the enemy soldiers as you can, while getting the least amount of death on your side as possible. You're not trading some number of kills until everyone is even. More Palestinian civilians die because the Israeli military is far stronger than the Palestinian's "soldiers", and because Hamas uses human shields. > Now in the span of just a few days Israel has killed over 7k more Palestinians. This isn't "retribution". This is an ongoing genocide Please, I've asked this of many people - in what sense is this a genocide? Provide some definition of genocide that this falls under. There is none, because this isn't a genocide. Israel's goal is not the eradication of Palestinians. It never has been. The way we know this is that the Palestinian population has basically doubled in the last 50 years. And despite the terrible, terrible civilian cost on the Palestinian side (which is horrible, and which any decent person should be appalled at), the amount of dead in Palestine is basically a tiny blip compared to any other conflict in the world, including several going on right now. Any dead civilian is too much, but the amount of dead in Palestine is just the opposite of indicating a genocide. But like I asked, if you have a different way of thinking about this, please, tell me what you mean when you say there's an ongoing genocide.

hbt 3y ago
a blockade of food, water and electricity, all crucial, especially when you are confined in a small area with low resources and a lot of people is a genocide. combine it with a bombing campaign that is indiscriminately targeting civilians and their infrastructure, from internet to hospitals is a war crime. keep in mind the blockade and hindering the economic development of Gaza is not new. there is no such thing as eradicating hamas because Israel and its policies are a recruitment tool. This conflict will continue and the children today will be fighting in a few years because what choice do they have than resist. The palestinians don't hide that their high fertility rate is politically motivated and have structured their society to marry young and have a lot of children as it is an act of Resistance. not all children make it, the malnutrition rate was around 15%. again, all caused by Israel as they have control major aspects of that open air prison. I think if you are shooting fish in a barrel and the international community lets you do it, you don't get to complain about the splashes and you certainly shouldn't be claiming the moral high ground. no matter how much the politicians or corporate mainstream media keep repeating it, Israel and its apartheid genocidal policies don't have international support.

john004 3y ago

[dead]

HDThoreaun 3y ago

I don't see the logic in blaming Israel for having a more competent military. Both sides are trying to kill people on the other side, palestine and Hamas are just incompetent and under resourced.

pxc 3y ago

> Now in the span of just a few days Israel has killed over 7k more Palestinians. This isn't "retribution". This is an ongoing genocide. It is impossible to look at this blackout, especially knowing Israel's history of covering up and reading their war crimes since before the foundation of the state (see: the Katz controversy and the massacre of Tantura), and not think that its purpose is to minimize the images and information coming out of Gaza so that Israel can conduct its genocide in the dark. The voices of Palestinians do not count, especially when they are only telling eyewitness accounts (see, again, the Katz controversy). When it comes to Israeli war crimes, only documentary evidence presented by (and ideally curated from) Israeli voices seems to reliably count. Whatever happens in the next few days, surviving Gazans will doubtless remember. But to the rest of the world, and to history, much of it will be 'lost'.