5 ms·

If you think any other country with a massively more powerful army would put up with a neighbor intermittently terrorizing them and then hide behind civilians a

If you think any other country with a massively more powerful army would put up with a neighbor intermittently terrorizing them and then hide behind civilians and not respond similarly, I'm not sure what to tell you. Doesn't make it right. But there's no easy way out of this. Look at the US response to 9-11 to see what other countries would do...

culi 3y ago
It is Israel that has been terrorizing Palestine. Between 2005-2008, 1,754 Palestinians and 117 Israelis have lost their lives due to the ongoing occupation. Between 2008-2023 2,329 more Palestinians and 308 more Israeli people lost their lives. The vast majority of Palestinian casualties are civilians. The vast majority of Israeli casualties are soldiers. The one country that still supports the far right genocidal Netanyahu administration is the United States. The US has used its veto power in the UN 34 times since 1954 to block resolutions that would've otherwise passed and led to some peace in the area. Instead the US is ensuring Israel is never held accountable for its crimes The entire rest of the world is up in protest currently. Americans are in an incredibly absurd denialist bubble: https://www.vox.com/2023/10/25/23930875/protests-palestine-israel https://www.vox.com/2023/10/25/23930875/protests-palestine-i...
- ipaddr 3y ago
  [flagged]
uluyol 3y ago
The Palestinians are not intermittently but continuously oppressed. Israel can stop it at any time but chooses not to, hence the retaliation by the Palestinians. What Israel is doing now is not retaliation but doubling down on their standard M.O. You've got the history backwards, friend.
- Danidin 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
    Yes, yes, and every country in the world beside old evil Israel would allow it. China would allow Taiwanese extermists to regularly sneak into China and brutally murder, rape, and torture 600,000 people without obliterating Taiwan. Russia wouldn't do anything if Ukrainian extremists launched rockets at them regularly - they'd just accept their crazy neighbors for who they are! And the US would definitely let 9-11 happen, and not invade and occupy two countries (one of which had literally nothing to do with anything) for a decade after. Only Israel is evil. /sarcasm in case not obvious.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    Bubble? Oh dear. You show your ignorance in this comment. > have an airport There's no airport in Gaza. Yasser Arafat airport was bombed and the runway destroyed in 2001 by Israel 22 years ago. > a port Since 2007, the Port of Gaza has been under an Israeli-imposed naval blockade as part of a blockade of the Gaza Strip, and activities at the port have been restricted to small-scale fishing. > unchecked import Where are these unchecked imports coming from? Through the closed Egyptian border? Or through the closed Israeli border?
  - culi 3y ago
    > Yes, let's let this terrorists who killed babies cold blooded This is a completely made up fake story that's oft repeated by the Netanyahu administration. No basis in reality And you should really learn about the history of Palestine and all the attempts at peace. Israel has occupied Palestine for decades and has murdered thousands. In 2014 alone they killed 2,300 Palestinians. 70% of those being civilians. In return Israel lost 87 soldiers in their invasion. If you lost your brother, mother, sister, etc, wouldn't that push you to... doing something? Anything? Hamas is NOT Palestine. But their existence ONLY makes sense if you read even a little bit of the history of this occupation.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  It's really not that simple at all. Israel pulled out of gaza and gazans immediately voted for a party whose main goal is the extermination of Jews. ending the oppression of palestinaisn would immediately lead to massive terrorist attacks against israelis, why would they let that happen?
- YZF 3y ago
  This is factually and morally wrong. - Israel is not intermittently but continuously under attack since 1948 for its mere existence. - Since when does being "oppressed" give anyone the right to launch rockets on civilians and commit suicide bombings? There are many people in this world who are much worse off than Palestinians who would never imagine engaging in these sorts of acts. - The Hamas wants Jews erased. It doesn't matter what Israel "stops" or does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
  - megous 3y ago
    Oh, mere existence. :) Sorry, this will not work anymore. More and more people now are learning about the massacres in '47/'48, Nakba, ethnic cleansing, violations of UN resolutions, or even the original partition plan, war crimes, constant illegal settler harrasment and land grabs, and the disgusting nature of the oppression, political machinations of the Israel's ruling class, etc. Ivoking morality or rights when the occupier doesn't respect either, will just keep working only on the most gullible. Israel is powerful, and has well established PR machine and lobbying, but the tide of public opinion can turn against it eventually, if it will push too hard.
    - YZF 3y ago
      Arabs massacred Jews as well. More and more people are learning nothing and are just repeating propaganda and promoting hate. I'm not denying there was violence against Arabs by Jews. I'm not denying there's settler harassment and land grabs. That does not justify the violence from the Arab side. It is not right but it also does not justify. If you're going to be stuck in 1947/1948 (and the picture isn't as simple as you're trying to paint it, conveniently forgetting the surrounding counties attacking Israel or the attacks of Arabs against Jews) then this is not going to get resolved. If the dialogue from the Palestinian side is stuck on their historic injustices, some of them are true, some of them maybe less true (to put mildly), without acknowledging the other side and without looking at how they might have contributed to where we stand they are going to lose more. Israel's PR sucks and it's not that powerful. Public opinion changes on a dime. EDIT: I just want to address a few more points: - "Ivoking morality or rights when the occupier doesn't respect either". There is no equivalency here and there are important details that are intentionally left fuzzy in this statement. The morality of building a settlement on occupied territory (from Jordan) is not equivalent to the morality of shooting a baby in the head in front of their parents. There is no piece of land on this earth that is not built on "occupied" territory. What is different about the west bank is that its status has never been resolved after it was won from Jordan in 1967. Some refer to the entirety of Israel + West bank + Gaza as occupied territory which is factually wrong. The fuzziness here is not random, it is intentional. - "original partition plan". Can you be more specific on the partition plan? It's generally the Arab side who avoids mentioning it and avoids mentioning that the Arabs rejected it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_... "Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition". - "war crimes". Generally speaking Israel is not committing war crimes. There is a vast legal apparatus in the IDF that advises on the legality of various actions. You may not like those those actions, and it's true that the Palestinians and some others label them as war crimes, but technically they are not. This is just more demonizing rhetoric justifying violence. It's basically blood libel. What most Arab PR calls a war crime is allowed under law of war. I'm sure there are some exceptions. The Israel-Arab situation is somewhat unique but if you compare to many other wars the Israelis are fighting relatively within the allowed legal frameworks. I think if you point out to specific actions, that are clearly war crimes, that's fine. If you just say "war crimes" that's propaganda.
enterprise_cog 3y ago
It’s a 25x5 mile strip of land, where Palestinians aren’t even allowed to build near the border. Where exactly are they supposed to operate out of? And it turns out it’s quite easy to not bomb civilians. You don’t drop bombs in cities.
- YZF 3y ago
  I'm not following the logic. Lebanon is much larger yet Hezbollah also embeds rocket launchers in with civilian infrastructure. Ukraine is vast yet cities are getting bombed all the time and are used as cover. Would you suggest to Ukraine that they should refrain from attacking Russian soldiers when they're in a city? Is your theory that if the Hamas had more land on which to place rockets they fire at Israeli civilians then they would take more care to place them ("operate out of") away from civilians? To answer your question, they're not supposed to "operate out of" anywhere in the first place. Israeli civilians and cities are under more or less constant attack or threat of attack.
jacquesm 3y ago
If not for the 'massively more powerful army' I'd have a hard time to know who you were talking about. And that's the problem right there. The US response to 9/11 was to attack the wrong country.
lamontcg 3y ago
> Look at the US response to 9-11 to see what other countries would do... My immediate response to seeing the planes hit the towers was "oh fuck, we're going to kill hundreds of thousands of people in the middle east". And those wars didn't turn out well. Justifying this by analogy to 9/11 doesn't cut the way that you think it does.

culi 3y ago

It is Israel that has been terrorizing Palestine. Between 2005-2008, 1,754 Palestinians and 117 Israelis have lost their lives due to the ongoing occupation. Between 2008-2023 2,329 more Palestinians and 308 more Israeli people lost their lives. The vast majority of Palestinian casualties are civilians. The vast majority of Israeli casualties are soldiers. The one country that still supports the far right genocidal Netanyahu administration is the United States. The US has used its veto power in the UN 34 times since 1954 to block resolutions that would've otherwise passed and led to some peace in the area. Instead the US is ensuring Israel is never held accountable for its crimes The entire rest of the world is up in protest currently. Americans are in an incredibly absurd denialist bubble: https://www.vox.com/2023/10/25/23930875/protests-palestine-israel https://www.vox.com/2023/10/25/23930875/protests-palestine-i...

ipaddr 3y ago
[flagged]

uluyol 3y ago

The Palestinians are not intermittently but continuously oppressed. Israel can stop it at any time but chooses not to, hence the retaliation by the Palestinians. What Israel is doing now is not retaliation but doubling down on their standard M.O. You've got the history backwards, friend.

Danidin 3y ago
[flagged]
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  Yes, yes, and every country in the world beside old evil Israel would allow it. China would allow Taiwanese extermists to regularly sneak into China and brutally murder, rape, and torture 600,000 people without obliterating Taiwan. Russia wouldn't do anything if Ukrainian extremists launched rockets at them regularly - they'd just accept their crazy neighbors for who they are! And the US would definitely let 9-11 happen, and not invade and occupy two countries (one of which had literally nothing to do with anything) for a decade after. Only Israel is evil. /sarcasm in case not obvious.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  Bubble? Oh dear. You show your ignorance in this comment. > have an airport There's no airport in Gaza. Yasser Arafat airport was bombed and the runway destroyed in 2001 by Israel 22 years ago. > a port Since 2007, the Port of Gaza has been under an Israeli-imposed naval blockade as part of a blockade of the Gaza Strip, and activities at the port have been restricted to small-scale fishing. > unchecked import Where are these unchecked imports coming from? Through the closed Egyptian border? Or through the closed Israeli border?
- culi 3y ago
  > Yes, let's let this terrorists who killed babies cold blooded This is a completely made up fake story that's oft repeated by the Netanyahu administration. No basis in reality And you should really learn about the history of Palestine and all the attempts at peace. Israel has occupied Palestine for decades and has murdered thousands. In 2014 alone they killed 2,300 Palestinians. 70% of those being civilians. In return Israel lost 87 soldiers in their invasion. If you lost your brother, mother, sister, etc, wouldn't that push you to... doing something? Anything? Hamas is NOT Palestine. But their existence ONLY makes sense if you read even a little bit of the history of this occupation.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
HDThoreaun 3y ago
It's really not that simple at all. Israel pulled out of gaza and gazans immediately voted for a party whose main goal is the extermination of Jews. ending the oppression of palestinaisn would immediately lead to massive terrorist attacks against israelis, why would they let that happen?
YZF 3y ago
This is factually and morally wrong. - Israel is not intermittently but continuously under attack since 1948 for its mere existence. - Since when does being "oppressed" give anyone the right to launch rockets on civilians and commit suicide bombings? There are many people in this world who are much worse off than Palestinians who would never imagine engaging in these sorts of acts. - The Hamas wants Jews erased. It doesn't matter what Israel "stops" or does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
- megous 3y ago
  Oh, mere existence. :) Sorry, this will not work anymore. More and more people now are learning about the massacres in '47/'48, Nakba, ethnic cleansing, violations of UN resolutions, or even the original partition plan, war crimes, constant illegal settler harrasment and land grabs, and the disgusting nature of the oppression, political machinations of the Israel's ruling class, etc. Ivoking morality or rights when the occupier doesn't respect either, will just keep working only on the most gullible. Israel is powerful, and has well established PR machine and lobbying, but the tide of public opinion can turn against it eventually, if it will push too hard.
  - YZF 3y ago
    Arabs massacred Jews as well. More and more people are learning nothing and are just repeating propaganda and promoting hate. I'm not denying there was violence against Arabs by Jews. I'm not denying there's settler harassment and land grabs. That does not justify the violence from the Arab side. It is not right but it also does not justify. If you're going to be stuck in 1947/1948 (and the picture isn't as simple as you're trying to paint it, conveniently forgetting the surrounding counties attacking Israel or the attacks of Arabs against Jews) then this is not going to get resolved. If the dialogue from the Palestinian side is stuck on their historic injustices, some of them are true, some of them maybe less true (to put mildly), without acknowledging the other side and without looking at how they might have contributed to where we stand they are going to lose more. Israel's PR sucks and it's not that powerful. Public opinion changes on a dime. EDIT: I just want to address a few more points: - "Ivoking morality or rights when the occupier doesn't respect either". There is no equivalency here and there are important details that are intentionally left fuzzy in this statement. The morality of building a settlement on occupied territory (from Jordan) is not equivalent to the morality of shooting a baby in the head in front of their parents. There is no piece of land on this earth that is not built on "occupied" territory. What is different about the west bank is that its status has never been resolved after it was won from Jordan in 1967. Some refer to the entirety of Israel + West bank + Gaza as occupied territory which is factually wrong. The fuzziness here is not random, it is intentional. - "original partition plan". Can you be more specific on the partition plan? It's generally the Arab side who avoids mentioning it and avoids mentioning that the Arabs rejected it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_... "Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition". - "war crimes". Generally speaking Israel is not committing war crimes. There is a vast legal apparatus in the IDF that advises on the legality of various actions. You may not like those those actions, and it's true that the Palestinians and some others label them as war crimes, but technically they are not. This is just more demonizing rhetoric justifying violence. It's basically blood libel. What most Arab PR calls a war crime is allowed under law of war. I'm sure there are some exceptions. The Israel-Arab situation is somewhat unique but if you compare to many other wars the Israelis are fighting relatively within the allowed legal frameworks. I think if you point out to specific actions, that are clearly war crimes, that's fine. If you just say "war crimes" that's propaganda.

enterprise_cog 3y ago

It’s a 25x5 mile strip of land, where Palestinians aren’t even allowed to build near the border. Where exactly are they supposed to operate out of? And it turns out it’s quite easy to not bomb civilians. You don’t drop bombs in cities.

YZF 3y ago
I'm not following the logic. Lebanon is much larger yet Hezbollah also embeds rocket launchers in with civilian infrastructure. Ukraine is vast yet cities are getting bombed all the time and are used as cover. Would you suggest to Ukraine that they should refrain from attacking Russian soldiers when they're in a city? Is your theory that if the Hamas had more land on which to place rockets they fire at Israeli civilians then they would take more care to place them ("operate out of") away from civilians? To answer your question, they're not supposed to "operate out of" anywhere in the first place. Israeli civilians and cities are under more or less constant attack or threat of attack.

jacquesm 3y ago

If not for the 'massively more powerful army' I'd have a hard time to know who you were talking about. And that's the problem right there. The US response to 9/11 was to attack the wrong country.

lamontcg 3y ago

> Look at the US response to 9-11 to see what other countries would do... My immediate response to seeing the planes hit the towers was "oh fuck, we're going to kill hundreds of thousands of people in the middle east". And those wars didn't turn out well. Justifying this by analogy to 9/11 doesn't cut the way that you think it does.