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petertodd wrote: > Anyway, if Gazan citizens learn the lessons of their mistakes, they still have a future. That is genocidal language where you are holding c

petertodd wrote: > Anyway, if Gazan citizens learn the lessons of their mistakes, they still have a future. That is genocidal language where you are holding civilians accountable. The Gazan population does not favor Hamas according to polling prior to October 7th: https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/1718007927556964511 https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/171800792755696451... Hamas was also boosted by Netanyahu in part to prevent a two-state solution and diminish moderate Palestinian leadership: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

petertodd 3y ago
Hamas has an estimated 30,000 to 40,000 soldiers(1). That's about 6% to 8% of the entire adult Gazan male population. It's impossible to have that many soldiers without widespread support. Maybe not a majority. But certainly a significant minority. Like it or not, a significant percentage of the adult Gazan population are responsible for Hamas because they're actively fighting for Hamas or directly supporting them. Pointing out that those people are accountable, and can choose a different future, is not genocidal language. It's stating the facts of the situation. Germany also faced the same choice after WW2. They chose to eradicate Nazism, which is a big part of why Germany is the successful country it is today. 1) https://www.axios.com/2023/10/21/palestine-hamas-military-power https://www.axios.com/2023/10/21/palestine-hamas-military-po...
- jeromegv 3y ago
  It’s a dictatorial regime. Just like Iran. The amount of soldiers as % of population is totally irrelevant when people are forced into it. You are putting the blame of the situation on the civilians. That is the problem. Do you think they chose to live in such a place? Did you read on how Hamas came into power and who helped them?
- bhouston 3y ago
  > It's impossible to have that many soldiers without widespread support. Maybe not a majority. But certainly a significant minority. Israel wanted Hamas to rule Gaza though and supported it financially while working against moderate Palestinians: > Netanyahu said: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas, ... This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-gaza-war-history https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-ga... This means that this attacks of Hamas by Israel is unlikely to lead to a better situation post war, because Netanyahu's position is to always have a reason why the Palestinians should not have freedom. It is more likely that things just get worse for the Palestinians after this war.
  - petertodd 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - bhouston 3y ago
      Peter Todd wrote: > That does not change the fact that Hamas does have widespread support! I already linked you this survey that showed that Hamas doesn't have widespread support: https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/1718007927556964511 https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/171800792755696451... > If Israel did nothing other than kill the ~40,000 Hamas soldiers, along with destroying military and economic infrastructure, they'll easily buy themselves another 10 years of relative safety. At which point they can do it all over again. Oh, okay. You are fine with just repeatedly bombing a captive population. It takes all kinds I guess.
      - petertodd 3y ago
        > I already linked you this survey that showed that Hamas doesn't have widespread support You're survey shows frustration with ineffective governance. There are lots of governments out there that people are frustrated with, yet still support. > Oh, okay. You are fine with just repeatedly bombing a captive population. It takes all kinds I guess. I'm not fine with it. But that doesn't change the fact that from Israeli's point of view, it is a better option than doing nothing. Allowing Hamas to conduct another massacre in the future is unacceptable. It's also unacceptable to allow Hamas to continue to rain down missiles on Israel - they're still launching them into Israel every single day.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        So, let's for a moment assume that Israel is successful in eradicating all of Hamas. Unlikely, but for the sake of the argument let's assume that it works. Then, two days later they kick a bunch of Palestinians out of their homes and bulldoze it, hand the land to a bunch of settlers. What's to stop a new Hamas to rise again?
- theossuary 3y ago
  That was after the allied powers realized their mistake in exacting retribution on Germany after WWI. The desire to take a future away from Germans directly led to the rise in Nazism. Ironically enough that's the same reason Hamas has widespread support. It's easier to sacrifice everything when you have nothing. Maybe we should learn the lessons of WWII, and allow Palestinians a future. Otherwise it is genocidal language.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    This is exactly why Hamas has absolutely no problem recruiting.
- megous 3y ago
  Israel and only Israel is reponsible for what it's doing to Gaza. So if it will chose genocide, it will have to live with that PR nightmare for a long time. It may lose alies, and life without alies may not be so good.
nwiswell 3y ago
> That is genocidal language where you are holding civilians accountable. The entire situation is deeply regrettable and it's hard to find any heroes here, but I feel like we forget our own history so easily. The United States, within living memory, conducted a firebombing campaign of Dresden, which had limited military value, killing over 25,000. We interned over 100,000 of our own citizens of Japanese ancestry. We conducted a firebombing campaign of Tokyo, killing around 100,000 civilians and leaving over a million homeless. And of course we dropped two atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing mostly civilians and causing deep scarring both psychological and physiological for the survivors. The reality is that these rules of war are more like guidelines. There is no one to enforce them if you win. When a nation feels existentially threatened, the gloves tend to come off. I don't seek to excuse anything, what is happening is a tragedy and as a matter of public policy there needs to be more diplomatic costs associated with unnecessary loss of civilian life. But there are not many countries that truly occupy a moral high ground in this regard.
- logicchains 3y ago
  >The United States, within living memory, conducted a firebombing campaign of Dresden, which had limited military value, killing over 25,000. We interned over 100,000 of our own citizens of Japanese ancestry. We conducted a firebombing campaign of Tokyo, killing around 100,000 civilians and leaving over a million homeless. The United States was the most powerful country by far at the time. Israel is tiny in comparison; it can't afford to just disregard public opinion and make enemies with all its neighbours, because the US won't be able to protect it forever.
  - nwiswell 3y ago
    > and make enemies with all its neighbours too late. Israel exists because it won the 1967 war, when many of its neighbors simultaneously tried to invade.
  - DoreenMichele 3y ago
    [flagged]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

petertodd 3y ago

Hamas has an estimated 30,000 to 40,000 soldiers(1). That's about 6% to 8% of the entire adult Gazan male population. It's impossible to have that many soldiers without widespread support. Maybe not a majority. But certainly a significant minority. Like it or not, a significant percentage of the adult Gazan population are responsible for Hamas because they're actively fighting for Hamas or directly supporting them. Pointing out that those people are accountable, and can choose a different future, is not genocidal language. It's stating the facts of the situation. Germany also faced the same choice after WW2. They chose to eradicate Nazism, which is a big part of why Germany is the successful country it is today. 1) https://www.axios.com/2023/10/21/palestine-hamas-military-power https://www.axios.com/2023/10/21/palestine-hamas-military-po...

jeromegv 3y ago
It’s a dictatorial regime. Just like Iran. The amount of soldiers as % of population is totally irrelevant when people are forced into it. You are putting the blame of the situation on the civilians. That is the problem. Do you think they chose to live in such a place? Did you read on how Hamas came into power and who helped them?
bhouston 3y ago
> It's impossible to have that many soldiers without widespread support. Maybe not a majority. But certainly a significant minority. Israel wanted Hamas to rule Gaza though and supported it financially while working against moderate Palestinians: > Netanyahu said: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas, ... This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-gaza-war-history https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-ga... This means that this attacks of Hamas by Israel is unlikely to lead to a better situation post war, because Netanyahu's position is to always have a reason why the Palestinians should not have freedom. It is more likely that things just get worse for the Palestinians after this war.
- petertodd 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - bhouston 3y ago
    Peter Todd wrote: > That does not change the fact that Hamas does have widespread support! I already linked you this survey that showed that Hamas doesn't have widespread support: https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/1718007927556964511 https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/171800792755696451... > If Israel did nothing other than kill the ~40,000 Hamas soldiers, along with destroying military and economic infrastructure, they'll easily buy themselves another 10 years of relative safety. At which point they can do it all over again. Oh, okay. You are fine with just repeatedly bombing a captive population. It takes all kinds I guess.
    - petertodd 3y ago
      > I already linked you this survey that showed that Hamas doesn't have widespread support You're survey shows frustration with ineffective governance. There are lots of governments out there that people are frustrated with, yet still support. > Oh, okay. You are fine with just repeatedly bombing a captive population. It takes all kinds I guess. I'm not fine with it. But that doesn't change the fact that from Israeli's point of view, it is a better option than doing nothing. Allowing Hamas to conduct another massacre in the future is unacceptable. It's also unacceptable to allow Hamas to continue to rain down missiles on Israel - they're still launching them into Israel every single day.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        So, let's for a moment assume that Israel is successful in eradicating all of Hamas. Unlikely, but for the sake of the argument let's assume that it works. Then, two days later they kick a bunch of Palestinians out of their homes and bulldoze it, hand the land to a bunch of settlers. What's to stop a new Hamas to rise again?
theossuary 3y ago
That was after the allied powers realized their mistake in exacting retribution on Germany after WWI. The desire to take a future away from Germans directly led to the rise in Nazism. Ironically enough that's the same reason Hamas has widespread support. It's easier to sacrifice everything when you have nothing. Maybe we should learn the lessons of WWII, and allow Palestinians a future. Otherwise it is genocidal language.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  This is exactly why Hamas has absolutely no problem recruiting.
megous 3y ago
Israel and only Israel is reponsible for what it's doing to Gaza. So if it will chose genocide, it will have to live with that PR nightmare for a long time. It may lose alies, and life without alies may not be so good.

nwiswell 3y ago

> That is genocidal language where you are holding civilians accountable. The entire situation is deeply regrettable and it's hard to find any heroes here, but I feel like we forget our own history so easily. The United States, within living memory, conducted a firebombing campaign of Dresden, which had limited military value, killing over 25,000. We interned over 100,000 of our own citizens of Japanese ancestry. We conducted a firebombing campaign of Tokyo, killing around 100,000 civilians and leaving over a million homeless. And of course we dropped two atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing mostly civilians and causing deep scarring both psychological and physiological for the survivors. The reality is that these rules of war are more like guidelines. There is no one to enforce them if you win. When a nation feels existentially threatened, the gloves tend to come off. I don't seek to excuse anything, what is happening is a tragedy and as a matter of public policy there needs to be more diplomatic costs associated with unnecessary loss of civilian life. But there are not many countries that truly occupy a moral high ground in this regard.

logicchains 3y ago
>The United States, within living memory, conducted a firebombing campaign of Dresden, which had limited military value, killing over 25,000. We interned over 100,000 of our own citizens of Japanese ancestry. We conducted a firebombing campaign of Tokyo, killing around 100,000 civilians and leaving over a million homeless. The United States was the most powerful country by far at the time. Israel is tiny in comparison; it can't afford to just disregard public opinion and make enemies with all its neighbours, because the US won't be able to protect it forever.
- nwiswell 3y ago
  > and make enemies with all its neighbours too late. Israel exists because it won the 1967 war, when many of its neighbors simultaneously tried to invade.
- DoreenMichele 3y ago
  [flagged]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]