7 ms·
Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them
by culi 3y ago
Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them a good Casus belli, but Israel has always been good at finding Casus bellis.
When Israel again invaded Gaza in 2014, they killed 2,310 people, 70% civilians and lost 67 soldiers in return. Even more destructive was the 7-10k homes completely demolished and 87k homes severely damaged.
Since 2008 until before the recent invasion of Gaza, Israel has killed 6,407 Palestinians—mostly civilians—and lost only 308 Israelis in return.
- fortran77 3y ago[flagged]
- defrost 3y agoWhich is both deplorable and fails to justify the killing of innocents. I've dug bodies out of bombed buildings and am no fan of real life bloodied and burned bodies - whether the cause is Hamas, Israel, or an earthquake.
- fortran77 3y agoSometimes you have to seek a solution when someone commits an act of war, like murdering 1400 civilians--brutally--and taking over 200 people hostage. The goal is to make sure this never happens again.
- defrost 3y agoSure; Cause --> effect. > like murdering 1400 civilians--brutally--and taking over 200 people hostage. Was there any prior cause for this, or did this just happen "out of the blue" with no prior provacation and no warning from various citizens of Israel that such an event was inevitable if the state continued down certain paths of action?
- omnimus 3y agoSomebody is confusing Hamas with Palestinian civilians.
- mcpackieh 3y agoHe's not confused, he's deliberately conflating them because he wants violent retribution against a civilian population. It seems all the wrong lessons were learned from WW2. Instead of "never again" it seems to be "this time by us."
- drunner 3y agoI think you missed the word civilians. Half the middle east has the right to come to the US and murder civilians by your reasoning above.
- stefan_ 3y ago[flagged]
- aaomidi 3y agohttps://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-c...
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago[flagged]
- aaomidi 3y agoAre you saying that Israel didn't help Hamas then? Because at this point this isn't even a secret anymore.
- culi 3y agoAre you reading anything. Nobody is in denial of events. People are simply trying to add important context. The fact that in 2014 Israel destroyed or damaged 100k homes and killed 2,300 people (70% civilian) and lost 87 soldiers in return is IMPORTANT CONTEXT for why things are the way they are. The fact that this is THE SECOND TIME Israel has invaded Gaza in the past decade is IMPORTANT CONTEXT.
- culi 3y agoIsrael killed nearly twice that in 2014 alone. Also the beheading of babies fake news has never been proven despite the Netanyahu administration's insistence on repeating it. Over 70% of Palestinians killed in the last decade are civilians. It is Israel that is killing indiscriminately. The entire world has tried over and over to pass UN resolutions to hold Israel accountable. The US has used its veto power to overrule these 34 times since 1954
- fortran77 3y ago[flagged]
- mcpackieh 3y agoIn several of your comments in this discussion you seem to be suggesting that all Palestinian civilians are guilty and fair game for retribution. Reminder that the large majority of Palestinians never voted for Hamas. Even in the last election, which was now 17 years ago, most Palestinians didn't vote for them. Any Palestinian adult who came of age after 2006 didn't vote for them. And not a single Palestinian child has ever voted for Hamas.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y agoIf you think any other country with a massively more powerful army would put up with a neighbor intermittently terrorizing them and then hide behind civilians and not respond similarly, I'm not sure what to tell you. Doesn't make it right. But there's no easy way out of this. Look at the US response to 9-11 to see what other countries would do...
- culi 3y agoIt is Israel that has been terrorizing Palestine. Between 2005-2008, 1,754 Palestinians and 117 Israelis have lost their lives due to the ongoing occupation. Between 2008-2023 2,329 more Palestinians and 308 more Israeli people lost their lives. The vast majority of Palestinian casualties are civilians. The vast majority of Israeli casualties are soldiers. The one country that still supports the far right genocidal Netanyahu administration is the United States. The US has used its veto power in the UN 34 times since 1954 to block resolutions that would've otherwise passed and led to some peace in the area. Instead the US is ensuring Israel is never held accountable for its crimes The entire rest of the world is up in protest currently. Americans are in an incredibly absurd denialist bubble: https://www.vox.com/2023/10/25/23930875/protests-palestine-israel https://www.vox.com/2023/10/25/23930875/protests-palestine-i...
- ipaddr 3y ago[flagged]
- uluyol 3y agoThe Palestinians are not intermittently but continuously oppressed. Israel can stop it at any time but chooses not to, hence the retaliation by the Palestinians. What Israel is doing now is not retaliation but doubling down on their standard M.O. You've got the history backwards, friend.
- Danidin 3y ago[flagged]
- paulvnickerson 3y ago> Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. This number comes from Hamas, so I would take it with a grain of salt. Hamas intentionally uses its civilians as shields for their military equipment. Here is a quote from Hamas's 1988 charter: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." [1] [1] https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
- culi 3y agoIt's the Health Ministry in Gaza and they've released the exact names of all 6,747 people they could account for. The UN said just 5 days ago that the figure was 5k. Given the increase in intensity 7k does not at all seem unreasonable to me https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142687 https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142687
- Danidin 3y ago"Health Ministry in Gaza" literally the health ministry of Hamas. Why would such organization lie? /s
- culi 3y agoThe UN estimated 5k 5 days ago.
- shihab 3y ago1. Hamas says over 7,300 killed in war; UN backs toll [1] 2. Despite Biden's doubts, humanitarian agencies consider Gaza toll reliable [2] [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-says-over-7300-killed-in-war-un-backs-toll/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-says-over... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-dou...
- dralley 3y ago>Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11 By what possible metric was it not a 9/11-magnitude event? Proportionally, on a per-capita basis, this attack was to Israel the equivalent of killing 50,000 people out of the US' much larger population. And one in ten people in the US personally knew someone that was killed or wounded on 9/11. Almost certainly far higher, in Israel. And the videos of people's parents, children, grandchildren being murdered were posted on social media by the perpetrators themselves. Comparisons to 9/11 are certainly not "played up". The opposite, if anything.
- bluish29 3y agoWould you mind doing the calculation of what the Palestinian casualties corresponds if they were happening in the US? or this does not serve your point?
- culi 3y agoGood point. But it's a little tricky considering the vast majority of Palestinians (~7 million) are refugees that have been displaced from their homeland. So are we talking about the half a million left in Gaza or the entire diaspora?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- culi 3y agoI'm not saying it's not proportionally equivalent. But look at the political blank check 9/11 gave the US to do some insane things. This is why that line is being repeated over and over again in Israeli news. They want that same blank check. Never mind the fact that the amount of Israeli lives lost during that surprise attack pales in comparison to how many Palestinians have been killed in the last decade. Or even just a single year! Look at how many Palestinians (civilians only, even) were killed in 2015
- mc32 3y agoIf the Palestinians had the same war machinery as the Israelis, do you think they’d be mindful of the ratios, or would they carry out their claims of erasing it and its population from the geography of the region? I believe if they could the Hamas leadership would not only want to destroy the Israeli military and any collateral civilians but would, if they could also destroy all civilians. Also realize many Palestinian civilians are victims of their own government who intentionally use them as human shields.
- enterprise_cog 3y agoIf this thing that has never and will never happen actually happened, do you think a thing that didn’t happen would be like a thing that is happening right now? Did I get that right?
- mc32 3y agoAre you saying that if they could do that thing they say they would do if they could, that they wouldn't do it?
- enterprise_cog 3y agoI don’t know. Neither do you. Let’s stick to reality and what is actually happening right now.
- mc32 3y agoThat's.. interesting. When others say they will do things people take them for their word that they will do those things (if Putin stated, hey, I'm going to interfere in lections, for example --oh, we don't know, let's stick to what we know now...). But here, we have equivocation and uncertainty? Huh! If a government initiates an unannounced attack on neighboring one, specifically seeking out and killing civilians without any restraint whatsoever and moreover mercilessly kills the most vulnerable of a population in personal and gruesome ways, I usually come to the conclusion they would not hesitate to undertake their stated purpose and promises.
- ProAm 3y agoDon't kick a bee's nest?
- petertodd 3y ago[flagged]
- bhouston 3y ago> The deaths of those civilians are on Hamas, not Israel. Again, you have the language of genocide going on. Basically any deaths in Gaza no matter how they occur are at the hands of Hamas in your opinion. You do realize that you've become radicalized right?
- petertodd 3y ago[flagged]
- catlover76 3y agoThis is basically an insane comment. It's very clear that you just don't think Palestinians and their lives matter at all. > It's not Israel's fault that Hamas hides among civilians. The deaths of those civilians are on Hamas, not Israel. And Israel is doing what it reasonably can to give Gazan civilians a chance to survive. Are you really so obtuse so as to not understand how fucked this logic is and how it does a disservice to your side to behave and think this way?
- YZF 3y ago[flagged]
- BrianHenryIE 3y ago> Is there a list published of all the causalities and their status? Yes. By the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties And I'm not entertaining the rest of your questions.
- YZF 3y agoThat is not a list. Israel publishes all the names and all the details of every single casualty.
- BrianHenryIE 3y agoGet a grip. The UN has the list. It's behind: > Password-protected access for humanitarian agencies > > Click here to access If I posted any other source you'd dismiss that too. https://www.moh.gov.ps/portal/category/%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%a3%d8%ae%d8%a8%d8%a7%d8%b1/%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%ae%d8%a8%d8%b1-%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%b1%d8%a6%d9%8a%d8%b3%d9%8a/ https://www.moh.gov.ps/portal/category/%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%a3%d8...
- tachyons 3y agoThese are definitely valid criticisms against Hamas, But how does that even remotely justify Israel? How does armed gang storming your house and killing you is different than bombing? Will it be less painful death? You want to take the claims about rape and mutilation though there weren't any proofs given till date, but doubt the number of people killed on Gaza despite all the names are published? If your only solution to beat a "terrorist" organization is to be bigger evil than them talks about the weakness of your government, not a blanket justification to commit genocide.
- YZF 3y agoI'm not sure what you're suggesting. That Hamas can commit a raid into Israel and then stay in Gaza with impunity because Israel is not allowed to bomb Gaza? That makes no sense. What do you propose Israel do with this "terrorist" (why the double quotes?) organization? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forensic-teams-describe-signs-torture-abuse-2023-10-15/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forensic-t... The word genocide is used way to often in this conflict. My dictionary says "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.". There is no genocide.
- ipaddr 3y agoLooks like the Hamas attacks and kidnappings backfired. What a horrible move. Can we agree on that point?
- raindear 3y agoWhat would you do if an enemy army crossed the border and slaughtered 1000 men, women, children, party goers and elderly?