5 ms·

$8M in Funding and a Lawsuit to Boot? Game on.

73 points by aaronwhite 15y ago

ttol 15y ago
Congrats Ariel, Aaron, and Brian! Textbook industry needs disruption.
atonse 15y ago
Am I the only one that really has NO idea what Boundless does? "Boundless is putting students back in control of their education." is extremely vague. Could they possibly just summarize what their product is? I'm guessing this is some kind of e-textbook? What is a textbook replacement? Are you replacing the physical format of a textbook into an eBook? Are you proposing an alternative (like interactive learning?) But if the textbook publishing industry is suing you, you must be doing something right.
- bbalfour 15y ago
  Happy to answer. I am one of the founders of Boundless. The first iteration of our product gave a student a 100% free alternative to buying their expensive textbook. The product is completely digital with search functionality, notes, highlights, etc. Very similar to an e-text, but a more elegant experience (and of course free!). We did that by leveraging something called Open Educational Resources (OER). OER is open source content developed by top institutions, organizations, and educational individuals. It sits in unorganized databases which makes it hard for a student or professor to adopt. We bridge the gap between the OER content and the student. Ultimately this is our first step. We don't consider ourselves a textbook company. No student wants to read hundreds of pages of text. Now that we have a great base of content, we will be redefining the user experience so that the user can focus on bite sized pieces of information rather than long form text. Let me know if you have other questions.
  - nostromo 15y ago
    Change your homepage text from: "Tired of spending thousands on college only to be forced to use educational products that you don't like? It’s time for a change. Boundless is built directly for students like you, tailored to each of your courses so that you can ditch the expensive textbook, master the essentials and boost your grade." to "Boundless replaces your textbooks. It's free."
    - aaronwhite 15y ago
      Hah! Love it :)
  - anotherthrow 15y ago
    I'm in the same position of antonse - can you spell it out a bit more? Suppose I'm a student studying course X at institution Y with course textbook Z - I sign up to Boundless, and what do I actually get? A summary of Z? Or something else?
slapshot 15y ago
The lawsuit is mentioned in the title, but glossed over in the blog post. The blog post claims that the publishers are trying to "copyright facts." But the actual complaint ( http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-york/nysdce/1:2012cv01986/393501/1/ http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-yor... ) suggests that the publishers allege much more. You don't have to agree with the publisher's claims (you obviously don't), but be fair and give the full picture. The publishers claim that Boundless is copying the chapter titles, subtitles, subheadings, and pagination of each book, using pictures of the book as marketing materials, and then paraphrasing 100% of the text of each book. It's true that you can't copyright facts, but paraphrasing on such a fine level is often considered copyright infringement. Even Wikipedia forbids close paraphrasing unless the original material is in the public domain or there is absolutely no other way to express it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Close_paraphrasing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Close_paraphrasing Universities also consider close paraphrasing to be plagiarism: http://library.csusm.edu/plagiarism/howtoavoid/how_avoid_paraphrase.htm http://library.csusm.edu/plagiarism/howtoavoid/how_avoid_par... And a court 100-ish years ago found that a close copy of an economics textbook was a form of copyright infringement, in a very similar pre-digital case (it's not like the digital era is the first time that people have noticed that books are expensive):http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macmillan_Co._v._King http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macmillan_Co._v._King Should that doctrine apply here? Is it a good doctrine in the digital era? There's room for debate. But you'd never know that from the blog post.
- aaronwhite 15y ago
  (I am one of the founders of Boundless) Believe me, we would love to go into very, very specific detail on exactly what is covered in the complaint, unfortunately talking publicly about details in the suit is taboo/off-limits. Further, our response isn't yet filed, which would provide some of that detail. But it's telling they chose to pursue litigation instead of any other form of out-reach.
  - jamesaguilar 15y ago
    > But it's telling they chose to pursue litigation instead of any other form of out-reach. Yeah, but what it's telling of is similarly open to debate. You'd probably say that that is proves they can't innovate or something in that direction. They might say that it's such an obvious and easy win that they don't even need to bother discussing it with you.
samke3 15y ago
No one likes the big textbook companies, but what Boundless is doing is clearly breaching copyright law. It seems they are hoping public pressure will save them, but I don't think most people are naive enough to agree the way they are doing things is ok. The open resources they are copying from, that's the way to replace textbooks.
pascalr 15y ago
I love that you are working on this. It's one problem that I really want fixed. But, your description doesn't impress and convince me. I'd drop at least more than half of the document. I'd drop most of the description about the problems with current textbooks and all the vague sales pitches. I'd focus on why your solution is better. As I am reading this, I got the impression that you don't have much except being free and online. Where does the content come from? Are the authors a good reference? How do you plan on making money? With annoying ads? And the lawsuit seems like a different document. Used for publicity?
tzs 15y ago
> Everyone has a favorite teacher, but no one has a favorite textbook I disagree. I bet if you went over to Reddit and asked on /r/math or /r/physics, you'd find plenty of people who have a favorite textbook. For example, I'd say Apostol's "Calculus", volume 1, is a favorite textbook of mine. I've read it 3 or 4 times over the last 30 years. The Feynman Lectures on Physics are another favorite of mine. > 4x more expensive/less accessible/same form factor (that's from their infographic, comparing textbooks in the '60s to now. It was on three lines there, which I've marked with slashes to fit the quote on one line) Based on inflation, they should be about 6x more expensive, so if that 4x figure is right textbook prices have improved since the '60s. However, I suspect that they are a little low in their estimate here. I think prices have gone up faster than inflation. I don't see how text books have become less accessible since the '60s. > There’s one other major concern: textbooks are just flat-out terrible products. They’re ineffective pedagogical tools: dense collections of long-form text that fail to engage students’ wide range of learning styles This may be true for the less technical fields, but I have yet to see anything better for, say, a rigorous upper level math course.
- aaronwhite 15y ago
  Yes, there is some selection bias both ways ;-) To be fair, the reason you haven't seen anything better is because very few people are able to get traction in the face of deep, deep entrenchment. Have you watched Bret Victor's "Kill Math" video? Imagine if most technical courses had that kind of interactive material. But right now, they won't, because the barriers to entry are artificially high and incumbents aren't innovating.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    Then why not just produce content like "Kill Math", rather than cloning textbooks? How is a 1:1 clone of an existing textbook --- Boundless texts are allegedly pitched to professors as clones, and branded "The Boundless Version of XXX" --- "innovation"?
- jcampbell1 15y ago
  I completely agree. I went to a university and thought the researchers they hired to teach me were, on average, terrible teachers. Fortunately the textbooks were good enough that the professor could half-assed teach the class and I could learn the material on my own. Without textbooks a university education would be a complete joke.
acknickulous 15y ago
Being sued is proof that you made it. Congrats!
danbmil99 15y ago
Why don't students just scan & torrent the texts? They already do that for their music collections.
- Terretta 15y ago
  Only one of these is valuable to them, and coincidentally is also the one that comes out of their own pocket.
- sunahsuh 15y ago
  They do -- when I was an undergrad there was a zip file that made the rounds with textbooks and old exams for many of the core courses.

73 points by aaronwhite 15y ago

ttol 15y ago

Congrats Ariel, Aaron, and Brian! Textbook industry needs disruption.

Am I the only one that really has NO idea what Boundless does? "Boundless is putting students back in control of their education." is extremely vague. Could they possibly just summarize what their product is? I'm guessing this is some kind of e-textbook? What is a textbook replacement? Are you replacing the physical format of a textbook into an eBook? Are you proposing an alternative (like interactive learning?) But if the textbook publishing industry is suing you, you must be doing something right.

bbalfour 15y ago
Happy to answer. I am one of the founders of Boundless. The first iteration of our product gave a student a 100% free alternative to buying their expensive textbook. The product is completely digital with search functionality, notes, highlights, etc. Very similar to an e-text, but a more elegant experience (and of course free!). We did that by leveraging something called Open Educational Resources (OER). OER is open source content developed by top institutions, organizations, and educational individuals. It sits in unorganized databases which makes it hard for a student or professor to adopt. We bridge the gap between the OER content and the student. Ultimately this is our first step. We don't consider ourselves a textbook company. No student wants to read hundreds of pages of text. Now that we have a great base of content, we will be redefining the user experience so that the user can focus on bite sized pieces of information rather than long form text. Let me know if you have other questions.
- nostromo 15y ago
  Change your homepage text from: "Tired of spending thousands on college only to be forced to use educational products that you don't like? It’s time for a change. Boundless is built directly for students like you, tailored to each of your courses so that you can ditch the expensive textbook, master the essentials and boost your grade." to "Boundless replaces your textbooks. It's free."
  - aaronwhite 15y ago
    Hah! Love it :)
- anotherthrow 15y ago
  I'm in the same position of antonse - can you spell it out a bit more? Suppose I'm a student studying course X at institution Y with course textbook Z - I sign up to Boundless, and what do I actually get? A summary of Z? Or something else?

slapshot 15y ago

The lawsuit is mentioned in the title, but glossed over in the blog post. The blog post claims that the publishers are trying to "copyright facts." But the actual complaint ( http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-york/nysdce/1:2012cv01986/393501/1/ http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-yor... ) suggests that the publishers allege much more. You don't have to agree with the publisher's claims (you obviously don't), but be fair and give the full picture. The publishers claim that Boundless is copying the chapter titles, subtitles, subheadings, and pagination of each book, using pictures of the book as marketing materials, and then paraphrasing 100% of the text of each book. It's true that you can't copyright facts, but paraphrasing on such a fine level is often considered copyright infringement. Even Wikipedia forbids close paraphrasing unless the original material is in the public domain or there is absolutely no other way to express it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Close_paraphrasing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Close_paraphrasing Universities also consider close paraphrasing to be plagiarism: http://library.csusm.edu/plagiarism/howtoavoid/how_avoid_paraphrase.htm http://library.csusm.edu/plagiarism/howtoavoid/how_avoid_par... And a court 100-ish years ago found that a close copy of an economics textbook was a form of copyright infringement, in a very similar pre-digital case (it's not like the digital era is the first time that people have noticed that books are expensive):http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macmillan_Co._v._King http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macmillan_Co._v._King Should that doctrine apply here? Is it a good doctrine in the digital era? There's room for debate. But you'd never know that from the blog post.

aaronwhite 15y ago
(I am one of the founders of Boundless) Believe me, we would love to go into very, very specific detail on exactly what is covered in the complaint, unfortunately talking publicly about details in the suit is taboo/off-limits. Further, our response isn't yet filed, which would provide some of that detail. But it's telling they chose to pursue litigation instead of any other form of out-reach.
- jamesaguilar 15y ago
  > But it's telling they chose to pursue litigation instead of any other form of out-reach. Yeah, but what it's telling of is similarly open to debate. You'd probably say that that is proves they can't innovate or something in that direction. They might say that it's such an obvious and easy win that they don't even need to bother discussing it with you.

samke3 15y ago

No one likes the big textbook companies, but what Boundless is doing is clearly breaching copyright law. It seems they are hoping public pressure will save them, but I don't think most people are naive enough to agree the way they are doing things is ok. The open resources they are copying from, that's the way to replace textbooks.

pascalr 15y ago

I love that you are working on this. It's one problem that I really want fixed. But, your description doesn't impress and convince me. I'd drop at least more than half of the document. I'd drop most of the description about the problems with current textbooks and all the vague sales pitches. I'd focus on why your solution is better. As I am reading this, I got the impression that you don't have much except being free and online. Where does the content come from? Are the authors a good reference? How do you plan on making money? With annoying ads? And the lawsuit seems like a different document. Used for publicity?

tzs 15y ago

> Everyone has a favorite teacher, but no one has a favorite textbook I disagree. I bet if you went over to Reddit and asked on /r/math or /r/physics, you'd find plenty of people who have a favorite textbook. For example, I'd say Apostol's "Calculus", volume 1, is a favorite textbook of mine. I've read it 3 or 4 times over the last 30 years. The Feynman Lectures on Physics are another favorite of mine. > 4x more expensive/less accessible/same form factor (that's from their infographic, comparing textbooks in the '60s to now. It was on three lines there, which I've marked with slashes to fit the quote on one line) Based on inflation, they should be about 6x more expensive, so if that 4x figure is right textbook prices have improved since the '60s. However, I suspect that they are a little low in their estimate here. I think prices have gone up faster than inflation. I don't see how text books have become less accessible since the '60s. > There’s one other major concern: textbooks are just flat-out terrible products. They’re ineffective pedagogical tools: dense collections of long-form text that fail to engage students’ wide range of learning styles This may be true for the less technical fields, but I have yet to see anything better for, say, a rigorous upper level math course.

aaronwhite 15y ago
Yes, there is some selection bias both ways ;-) To be fair, the reason you haven't seen anything better is because very few people are able to get traction in the face of deep, deep entrenchment. Have you watched Bret Victor's "Kill Math" video? Imagine if most technical courses had that kind of interactive material. But right now, they won't, because the barriers to entry are artificially high and incumbents aren't innovating.
- tptacek 15y ago
  Then why not just produce content like "Kill Math", rather than cloning textbooks? How is a 1:1 clone of an existing textbook --- Boundless texts are allegedly pitched to professors as clones, and branded "The Boundless Version of XXX" --- "innovation"?
jcampbell1 15y ago
I completely agree. I went to a university and thought the researchers they hired to teach me were, on average, terrible teachers. Fortunately the textbooks were good enough that the professor could half-assed teach the class and I could learn the material on my own. Without textbooks a university education would be a complete joke.

acknickulous 15y ago

Being sued is proof that you made it. Congrats!

danbmil99 15y ago

Why don't students just scan & torrent the texts? They already do that for their music collections.

Terretta 15y ago
Only one of these is valuable to them, and coincidentally is also the one that comes out of their own pocket.
sunahsuh 15y ago
They do -- when I was an undergrad there was a zip file that made the rounds with textbooks and old exams for many of the core courses.