3 ms·

Is USB-D on the horizon at this point

by Apocryphon 3y ago

CharlesW 3y ago
Happily, no. USB-C refers to the physical connector, and we’re done with physical connector changes for a few years.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  Puns aside, is there a next generation speculative standard being designed already? A la 6G, HTTP/3, etc.
  - CharlesW 3y ago
    My guess is that USB-C/Thunderbolt ports will gradually become a niche “pro” feature, replaced on most consumer devices with UWB. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband
- ericmay 3y ago
  Well I think we are actually done for more than a few years. Legislation mandating USB-C will lead to stagnation there. Who is going to bother creating a new physical connector design? I say this as a fan of USB-C and Apple changing it so that we have USB-C on devices. Though I’m perplexed as to why they added HDMI and SD card slots back on the Mac instead of maintaining USB-C everywhere. That was a bit of a disappointment as now I have to hope a dongle is available and have to plan for connectivity versus USB-C everywhere. Sigh
  - zlsa 3y ago
    I completely agree - having four Thunderbolt ports was amazing, and I'm sad that one of them has become a dedicated HDMI port. I like the SD card slot, though, but even then I'd rather have four Thunderbolt ports than three Thunderbolt, HDMI, and an SD card slot.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      Absolutely. The HDMI port on the 2021 models doesn’t even support 4K60 at 10 bit (HDR); the USB-C/TB/DisplayPort ports can supply much more. They could have fit two in the space of the HDMI port! At least on the 2023 models the native HDMI port can do something that’s not possible using adapters yet (i.e. output HDMI VRR, which is somewhat important if Apple really wants to make gaming on macOS a thing).
  - remedan 3y ago
    EU legislation previously mandated micro USB on phones. That didn't seem to kill innovation, we still got USB-C. The only thing it killed was every manufacturer using a different bad connector. I don't see any downsides.
    - ericmay 3y ago
      Apple was an exception and this feels different to me. Everybody and everything is standardizing on USB-C. If you don’t see any potential downsides you aren’t looking hard enough. And this comes from someone who has wanted USB-C for a long time.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        > Apple was an exception and this feels different to me. They were an exception because they already had the bestselling smartphone at the time they switched away from the 30-pin connector. Apple could have put a DC barrel-jack as the main power connector and the market would have no choice but to adopt it. They seized the opportunity to create a functionally-identical protocol to USB and encumber it with a licensed connector for personal gain. Regardless of how you feel about the connectors at the time, this was not a serious alternative to USB. > Everybody and everything is standardizing on USB-C. Yeah, I wonder which company was known/hated for pushing USB-C early-on as a connection standard yet not fully adopting it themselves. > If you don’t see any potential downsides you aren’t looking hard enough. No, if you don't see the problem with the status-quo then you're being blinded by baseless loyalty. From a regulatory perspective, the situation is this; public utilities cannot converge on a serial specification as long as the iPhone uses Lightning. So, they have to weigh the benefits and downsides to the scenario. Apple's connector is more physically advanced, but also license-encumbered and genuinely impossible to standardize a-la USB. Apple made no attempt to formalize Lightning under USB-IF. Their horse isn't even on the racetrack. If you consider Lightning's value to be greater than the overall harm of converging on a USB standard, then you should lobby Apple to make it an open spec and remove MFi in favor of USB class-compliance. Until that point, it will be deservedly remembered by history as a petty attempt to push unwanted IP on customers who would otherwise have no choice in the matter.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    > Legislation mandating USB-C will lead to stagnation there. Really? What more do we need out of current USB-C specifications that isn't covered in the Thunderbolt spec? That's ~240w of power at max (iirc) and more data throughput than your CPU can shake a stick at. If you're suggesting that someone creates a new connector to replace USB-C, they can still do that. They just have to do it through USB-IF and ensure that it's a community effort, not a competitive one. Commodity hardware should not ship with licensed serial/data connector hardware in 2023. > Though I’m perplexed as to why they added HDMI and SD card slots back on the Mac My guess is that Thunderbolt requires a lot of throughput, and if you're not using Intel IO controllers it's hard to guarantee it. AMD has also struggled in this department, despite shipping arguably more advanced CPUs for a while now. It wouldn't surprise me if the original M1 was only specced for 2-3 lanes of TB4, and went with lower-bandwidth connectors to put the extra capacity to use.
    - ericmay 3y ago
      > Really? What more do we need out of current USB-C specifications that isn't covered in the Thunderbolt spec? Idk. Ask me in a few years.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        That's not a wrong answer. It's just the same one that we've been asking since like 2014, and answering by saying "well here's a newer Thunderbolt spec..." I'm not really sure if novel connection redesigns are going to ever be a necessity in this product category.
  - bigbillheck 3y ago
    > Legislation mandating USB-C will lead to stagnation there. I certainly hope so.

Is USB-D on the horizon at this point

CharlesW 3y ago

Happily, no. USB-C refers to the physical connector, and we’re done with physical connector changes for a few years.

Apocryphon 3y ago
Puns aside, is there a next generation speculative standard being designed already? A la 6G, HTTP/3, etc.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  My guess is that USB-C/Thunderbolt ports will gradually become a niche “pro” feature, replaced on most consumer devices with UWB. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband
ericmay 3y ago
Well I think we are actually done for more than a few years. Legislation mandating USB-C will lead to stagnation there. Who is going to bother creating a new physical connector design? I say this as a fan of USB-C and Apple changing it so that we have USB-C on devices. Though I’m perplexed as to why they added HDMI and SD card slots back on the Mac instead of maintaining USB-C everywhere. That was a bit of a disappointment as now I have to hope a dongle is available and have to plan for connectivity versus USB-C everywhere. Sigh
- zlsa 3y ago
  I completely agree - having four Thunderbolt ports was amazing, and I'm sad that one of them has become a dedicated HDMI port. I like the SD card slot, though, but even then I'd rather have four Thunderbolt ports than three Thunderbolt, HDMI, and an SD card slot.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    Absolutely. The HDMI port on the 2021 models doesn’t even support 4K60 at 10 bit (HDR); the USB-C/TB/DisplayPort ports can supply much more. They could have fit two in the space of the HDMI port! At least on the 2023 models the native HDMI port can do something that’s not possible using adapters yet (i.e. output HDMI VRR, which is somewhat important if Apple really wants to make gaming on macOS a thing).
- remedan 3y ago
  EU legislation previously mandated micro USB on phones. That didn't seem to kill innovation, we still got USB-C. The only thing it killed was every manufacturer using a different bad connector. I don't see any downsides.
  - ericmay 3y ago
    Apple was an exception and this feels different to me. Everybody and everything is standardizing on USB-C. If you don’t see any potential downsides you aren’t looking hard enough. And this comes from someone who has wanted USB-C for a long time.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      > Apple was an exception and this feels different to me. They were an exception because they already had the bestselling smartphone at the time they switched away from the 30-pin connector. Apple could have put a DC barrel-jack as the main power connector and the market would have no choice but to adopt it. They seized the opportunity to create a functionally-identical protocol to USB and encumber it with a licensed connector for personal gain. Regardless of how you feel about the connectors at the time, this was not a serious alternative to USB. > Everybody and everything is standardizing on USB-C. Yeah, I wonder which company was known/hated for pushing USB-C early-on as a connection standard yet not fully adopting it themselves. > If you don’t see any potential downsides you aren’t looking hard enough. No, if you don't see the problem with the status-quo then you're being blinded by baseless loyalty. From a regulatory perspective, the situation is this; public utilities cannot converge on a serial specification as long as the iPhone uses Lightning. So, they have to weigh the benefits and downsides to the scenario. Apple's connector is more physically advanced, but also license-encumbered and genuinely impossible to standardize a-la USB. Apple made no attempt to formalize Lightning under USB-IF. Their horse isn't even on the racetrack. If you consider Lightning's value to be greater than the overall harm of converging on a USB standard, then you should lobby Apple to make it an open spec and remove MFi in favor of USB class-compliance. Until that point, it will be deservedly remembered by history as a petty attempt to push unwanted IP on customers who would otherwise have no choice in the matter.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  > Legislation mandating USB-C will lead to stagnation there. Really? What more do we need out of current USB-C specifications that isn't covered in the Thunderbolt spec? That's ~240w of power at max (iirc) and more data throughput than your CPU can shake a stick at. If you're suggesting that someone creates a new connector to replace USB-C, they can still do that. They just have to do it through USB-IF and ensure that it's a community effort, not a competitive one. Commodity hardware should not ship with licensed serial/data connector hardware in 2023. > Though I’m perplexed as to why they added HDMI and SD card slots back on the Mac My guess is that Thunderbolt requires a lot of throughput, and if you're not using Intel IO controllers it's hard to guarantee it. AMD has also struggled in this department, despite shipping arguably more advanced CPUs for a while now. It wouldn't surprise me if the original M1 was only specced for 2-3 lanes of TB4, and went with lower-bandwidth connectors to put the extra capacity to use.
  - ericmay 3y ago
    > Really? What more do we need out of current USB-C specifications that isn't covered in the Thunderbolt spec? Idk. Ask me in a few years.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      That's not a wrong answer. It's just the same one that we've been asking since like 2014, and answering by saying "well here's a newer Thunderbolt spec..." I'm not really sure if novel connection redesigns are going to ever be a necessity in this product category.
- bigbillheck 3y ago
  > Legislation mandating USB-C will lead to stagnation there. I certainly hope so.