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> Moving permanently is one thing, but Europeans have to go through that bullshit even for tourist visas, Most Europeans get to use the quick and relatively ch

> Moving permanently is one thing, but Europeans have to go through that bullshit even for tourist visas, Most Europeans get to use the quick and relatively cheap shortcut of ESTA/VWP rather than needing to apply for a full tourist visa, though indeed there are exceptions based on nationality or personal history. > while all y'all need is your passport because our dumbass politicians didn't insist on reciprocity. The EU has been working on their own version of ESTA called ETIAS for many years now, which has been repeatedly delayed for EU-internal reasons that as far as I've read have nothing to do with US pressure, like technical/IT delays and a request from France for the related Entry/Exit System not to begin before the Paris Olympics. ETIAS is currently expected to begin operation in 2025 and will apply to US citizens just as it will to every other Schengen-visa exempt third-country nationality. Since you said "Europeans" rather than "EU citizens" or "Schengen citizens", I'll recognize that the UK is still in Europe and note that they're preparing to do the same kind of thing, with their system to be called ETA and also intended to include US citizens once fully implemented. So that will bring approximate reciprocity, again with the exception of those Europeans who don't qualify for the US ESTA/VWP system.

mschuster91 3y ago
> Most Europeans get to use the quick and relatively cheap shortcut of ESTA/VWP rather than needing to apply for a full tourist visa, though indeed there are exceptions based on nationality or personal history. You still need to pass the CBP exam, have your social media profile scanned by them, or you can be rejected at the border because the CBP agent doesn't like you got convicted for pot at 18. You Americans don't have to endure any of that to enter the Schengen area. > ETIAS is currently expected to begin operation in 2025 and will apply to US citizens just as it will to every other Schengen-visa exempt third-country nationality. I have zero reason to believe ETIAS will be ready by that date.
- jkaplowitz 3y ago
  > You still need to pass the CBP exam, have your social media profile scanned by them, or you can be rejected at the border because the CBP agent doesn't like you got convicted for pot at 18. We agree that the US government border rules for noncitizens are far too invasive and harsh, especially as to drug rules - though the core of that harshness comes from laws passed by the elected legislators, with only part of it coming from agency regulations and culture. Much of that awfulness is not about a lack of reciprocity for the visa exemption: what you describe applies even to people who do need visas, not only to those who qualify for the Visa Waiver Program. Even Canadians, who normally are truly exempt from needing any kind of pre-approval at all to show up at a US port of entry with a Canadian passport, can still be interrogated and refused for all the same reasons as any European - they can just skip the advance approval, aside from any waiver they might need due to previously having been found inadmissible, but they are still rolling the dice at the border as with any other visitor. By contrast, people who need US visas have far more expense and hassle to deal with than the still-bad bullshit that the US puts most European tourists through - on top of most of that bullshit, not instead of it. > You Americans don't have to endure any of that to enter the Schengen area. Very true, but again, this difference between the systems is far more pervasive than just any lack of reciprocity. The European immigration and border control systems are just plain more humane and less broken than the US equivalents, regardless of which countries exempt which other countries from which documentation requirements. > I have zero reason to believe ETIAS will be ready by that date. It’s true that it’s been delayed an absurd number of times so far and could get delayed again. But the biggest reason for the duration of the latest delay is just a short-term political matter rather than anything technical: France wants to delay the Entry/Exit System until after the Paris Olympics, and ETIAS depends on that working well for some months. From what I’ve read, the IT side of things is close to ready. We will see. I would not be surprised by further small delays, but I do expect these systems to begin operating within a few years instead of beyond that time.

mschuster91 3y ago

> Most Europeans get to use the quick and relatively cheap shortcut of ESTA/VWP rather than needing to apply for a full tourist visa, though indeed there are exceptions based on nationality or personal history. You still need to pass the CBP exam, have your social media profile scanned by them, or you can be rejected at the border because the CBP agent doesn't like you got convicted for pot at 18. You Americans don't have to endure any of that to enter the Schengen area. > ETIAS is currently expected to begin operation in 2025 and will apply to US citizens just as it will to every other Schengen-visa exempt third-country nationality. I have zero reason to believe ETIAS will be ready by that date.

jkaplowitz 3y ago
> You still need to pass the CBP exam, have your social media profile scanned by them, or you can be rejected at the border because the CBP agent doesn't like you got convicted for pot at 18. We agree that the US government border rules for noncitizens are far too invasive and harsh, especially as to drug rules - though the core of that harshness comes from laws passed by the elected legislators, with only part of it coming from agency regulations and culture. Much of that awfulness is not about a lack of reciprocity for the visa exemption: what you describe applies even to people who do need visas, not only to those who qualify for the Visa Waiver Program. Even Canadians, who normally are truly exempt from needing any kind of pre-approval at all to show up at a US port of entry with a Canadian passport, can still be interrogated and refused for all the same reasons as any European - they can just skip the advance approval, aside from any waiver they might need due to previously having been found inadmissible, but they are still rolling the dice at the border as with any other visitor. By contrast, people who need US visas have far more expense and hassle to deal with than the still-bad bullshit that the US puts most European tourists through - on top of most of that bullshit, not instead of it. > You Americans don't have to endure any of that to enter the Schengen area. Very true, but again, this difference between the systems is far more pervasive than just any lack of reciprocity. The European immigration and border control systems are just plain more humane and less broken than the US equivalents, regardless of which countries exempt which other countries from which documentation requirements. > I have zero reason to believe ETIAS will be ready by that date. It’s true that it’s been delayed an absurd number of times so far and could get delayed again. But the biggest reason for the duration of the latest delay is just a short-term political matter rather than anything technical: France wants to delay the Entry/Exit System until after the Paris Olympics, and ETIAS depends on that working well for some months. From what I’ve read, the IT side of things is close to ready. We will see. I would not be surprised by further small delays, but I do expect these systems to begin operating within a few years instead of beyond that time.