5 ms·

I am amateur (but wannabe professional) fiction writer. When I see this type of tool I realize that I have a conceptual misalignment with some (most?) writers i

by soneca 3y ago

I am amateur (but wannabe professional) fiction writer. When I see this type of tool I realize that I have a conceptual misalignment with some (most?) writers in regarding to focus, editing, flow. For me, editing is part of the flow. I like to edit things as they go through my head, as part of my state of flow, not as a separate chore from which I have to “protect” my draft writing from. I think of it as an analogy from sculpting. The first draft writing is getting the amorphous block into a rough shape of, e.g., a hand. Then, editing is the fine work to make the bones, skin wrinkles and veins of the hand to make it perfect. In this analogy, the editing is the hardest, most focus demanding, most detail-oriented work that requires no distractions. But just offering my perspective here. A good thing about having more software developers in the world is the diversity of tools available for diverse people. So I am happy that this exists.

drekipus 3y ago
I think it's the same analogy, the tool is supposed to separate it so that you can get the rough shape in before you try to perfect the hand, (then realise it's facing the wrong way.)
mat_epice 3y ago
I'm with you, although any writing I do is technical. I find that immediately micro-editing the fragment/sentence/paragraph I just wrote is easier than coming back as a separate step. Maybe it's because my first cut is so bad!
powersnail 3y ago
It’s less about flow but more about a practical problem faced by some writers: Some writers have the trouble stopping themselves from constant editing of the words they’ve just write, to the extent that significantly impact their ability to produce an actual draft. Lots of the editing are useless anyway, since when you are really editing the draft later, most likely you are going to throw away many pages and paragraphs of work, so all the time spent on micro-editing are wasted. The biggest contrast between sculpting and writing is that sculpting is non-revocable. You can negotiate over a single paragraph for hours, rewriting and rewriting and rewriting. There is no redo button for chiseling.
- soneca 3y ago
  > ”since when you are really editing the draft later, most likely you are going to throw away many pages and paragraphs of work” It seems relevant that I also do not write like this. When I wrote my first novel, I wrote the draft and gave to my beta readers. Most of the feedback I got was that I needed to add stuff. Develop a character more, take more time to get to the resolution of a problem, add a new perspective. From the first draft to the final version, it got probably around 30% bigger. Very few paragraphs were cut after that initial draft.
  - spondylosaurus 3y ago
    I hate to invoke the tired "plotters and pantsers" dichotomy, but this does seem like one of those things that comes down to whether you set out to write with some kind of scaffold in mind (or on paper) or whether you're more inclined to let the blank page take you wherever it takes you. I'm definitely in the former camp, and have the same line-by-line editing habits that you describe, both in my professional and personal writing. And like you, end up throwing away very little, because anything I included the first time around was included deliberately. OTOH it stresses me out a little imagining what it's like to write more spontaneously, without even a vague sense of where you're headed—what happens when you hit a dead end and need to backtrack? Do you just throw out hours and hours of work and try again?
    - girvo 3y ago
      > what happens when you hit a dead end and need to backtrack? Do you just throw out hours and hours of work and try again? Quite literally, yes! :)
      - spondylosaurus 3y ago
        That sounds so frustrating! But I admire and maybe even envy your ability to do it. And with a smile, no less.
    - schwartzworld 3y ago
ryanianian 3y ago
This kind of tool is great for outline-level rough drafts. Much like steam of consciousness journaling to see where your mind goes. Then decide how much if any of that to bring into the rough draft in an edit-friendly editor.
ryangittins 3y ago
You and I are what Kurt Vonnegut called Bashers: > Swoopers write a story quickly, higgledy-piggledy, crinkum-crankum, any which way. Then they go over it again painstakingly, fixing everything that is just plain awful or doesn’t work. Bashers go one sentence at a time, getting it exactly right before they go on to the next one. When they’re done they’re done. I always found this frustrating in high school, as some assignments required submission of a first draft, second draft, and final version of a paper. I always wrote the final version first and then worked backwards to created a second and then a first draft by removing sentences and generally making it worse.
- DoctorOW 3y ago
  > I always found this frustrating in high school, as some assignments required submission of a first draft, second draft, and final version of a paper. I always wrote the final version first and then worked backwards to created a second and then a first draft by removing sentences and generally making it worse. I always did this as well. You are the first other person I've heard describe that.
  - teddyh 3y ago
    Here’s another person reporting the same thing: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIzMaLkCaM#t=5m10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIzMaLkCaM#t=5m10s> (It’s Larry McEnerney’s very excellent lecture The Craft of Writing Effectively, aimed at writers who are either academians or otherwise experts in some field.)
- noduerme 3y ago
  Just as a side note, I worked for several ad agencies with art directors who did the same thing. We'd make the final ad, then screw it up intentionally and show it to the client so they'd spot the obvious flaws/mistakes, tell us to fix them, and then we'd give them what we'd already done. It's not a strategy I use in my own work now, but it taught me something interesting about the psychology of clients. I think there are better ways to let them know they got their money's worth, like writing full explanations of your choices and thought processes. But intentionally sabotaging your first draft is definitely a well-worn method in the art and design world.
vidarh 3y ago
This varies greatly between writers. I've self published two scifi novels, and I found I wrote faster when I didn't edit as I went (even when subsequent editing was factored in), but fast isn't always what you're going for. And I don't personally need (or want) tools to push me not to edit. But where editing really kills you are for those who get stuck in "endless" polishing of the smallest little details before they have anything, and as a result never get anywhere. Then having tools to push you past that can be useful.
adamc 3y ago
^This.Maybe part of the problem is that I've been around a while, and already have a bunch of habits around writing, and one of them is that I like to edit while I write, because writing is an attempt to work out what I actually think. Having something that blocks me from editing as I write would be a huge downgrade. Zero interest.
cratermoon 3y ago
On the Basher/Swooper working style, I believe there value for each type to incorporate a little of the other type. Through most of my education, I was a Basher. I didn't write drafts, I wrote start to finish, but it was never as good as I'd wished. Later in life I began to deliberately practice some of the Swooper techniques, and my writing got more satisfying. It's possible the difference is somewhat generational as well, because the Basher style is suitable for writing with the somewhat cranky typewriter on paper, because rework is harder. Today, it's almost trivial to mix and mash our writing because all it takes is ctrl-C ctrl-V. Unless you're William S. Burrows, in which case, just don't get too near me with those scissors. https://www.faena.com/aleph/cut-up-the-creative-technique-used-by-burroughs-dylan-bowie-and-cobain https://www.faena.com/aleph/cut-up-the-creative-technique-us...
Ingaz 3y ago
It's same for me. But now I think maybe it's good to try other way.

by soneca 3y ago

drekipus 3y ago

I think it's the same analogy, the tool is supposed to separate it so that you can get the rough shape in before you try to perfect the hand, (then realise it's facing the wrong way.)

mat_epice 3y ago

I'm with you, although any writing I do is technical. I find that immediately micro-editing the fragment/sentence/paragraph I just wrote is easier than coming back as a separate step. Maybe it's because my first cut is so bad!

powersnail 3y ago

It’s less about flow but more about a practical problem faced by some writers: Some writers have the trouble stopping themselves from constant editing of the words they’ve just write, to the extent that significantly impact their ability to produce an actual draft. Lots of the editing are useless anyway, since when you are really editing the draft later, most likely you are going to throw away many pages and paragraphs of work, so all the time spent on micro-editing are wasted. The biggest contrast between sculpting and writing is that sculpting is non-revocable. You can negotiate over a single paragraph for hours, rewriting and rewriting and rewriting. There is no redo button for chiseling.

soneca 3y ago
> ”since when you are really editing the draft later, most likely you are going to throw away many pages and paragraphs of work” It seems relevant that I also do not write like this. When I wrote my first novel, I wrote the draft and gave to my beta readers. Most of the feedback I got was that I needed to add stuff. Develop a character more, take more time to get to the resolution of a problem, add a new perspective. From the first draft to the final version, it got probably around 30% bigger. Very few paragraphs were cut after that initial draft.
- spondylosaurus 3y ago
  I hate to invoke the tired "plotters and pantsers" dichotomy, but this does seem like one of those things that comes down to whether you set out to write with some kind of scaffold in mind (or on paper) or whether you're more inclined to let the blank page take you wherever it takes you. I'm definitely in the former camp, and have the same line-by-line editing habits that you describe, both in my professional and personal writing. And like you, end up throwing away very little, because anything I included the first time around was included deliberately. OTOH it stresses me out a little imagining what it's like to write more spontaneously, without even a vague sense of where you're headed—what happens when you hit a dead end and need to backtrack? Do you just throw out hours and hours of work and try again?
  - girvo 3y ago
    > what happens when you hit a dead end and need to backtrack? Do you just throw out hours and hours of work and try again? Quite literally, yes! :)
    - spondylosaurus 3y ago
      That sounds so frustrating! But I admire and maybe even envy your ability to do it. And with a smile, no less.
  - schwartzworld 3y ago

ryanianian 3y ago

This kind of tool is great for outline-level rough drafts. Much like steam of consciousness journaling to see where your mind goes. Then decide how much if any of that to bring into the rough draft in an edit-friendly editor.

ryangittins 3y ago

You and I are what Kurt Vonnegut called Bashers: > Swoopers write a story quickly, higgledy-piggledy, crinkum-crankum, any which way. Then they go over it again painstakingly, fixing everything that is just plain awful or doesn’t work. Bashers go one sentence at a time, getting it exactly right before they go on to the next one. When they’re done they’re done. I always found this frustrating in high school, as some assignments required submission of a first draft, second draft, and final version of a paper. I always wrote the final version first and then worked backwards to created a second and then a first draft by removing sentences and generally making it worse.

DoctorOW 3y ago
> I always found this frustrating in high school, as some assignments required submission of a first draft, second draft, and final version of a paper. I always wrote the final version first and then worked backwards to created a second and then a first draft by removing sentences and generally making it worse. I always did this as well. You are the first other person I've heard describe that.
- teddyh 3y ago
  Here’s another person reporting the same thing: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIzMaLkCaM#t=5m10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIzMaLkCaM#t=5m10s> (It’s Larry McEnerney’s very excellent lecture The Craft of Writing Effectively, aimed at writers who are either academians or otherwise experts in some field.)
noduerme 3y ago
Just as a side note, I worked for several ad agencies with art directors who did the same thing. We'd make the final ad, then screw it up intentionally and show it to the client so they'd spot the obvious flaws/mistakes, tell us to fix them, and then we'd give them what we'd already done. It's not a strategy I use in my own work now, but it taught me something interesting about the psychology of clients. I think there are better ways to let them know they got their money's worth, like writing full explanations of your choices and thought processes. But intentionally sabotaging your first draft is definitely a well-worn method in the art and design world.

vidarh 3y ago

This varies greatly between writers. I've self published two scifi novels, and I found I wrote faster when I didn't edit as I went (even when subsequent editing was factored in), but fast isn't always what you're going for. And I don't personally need (or want) tools to push me not to edit. But where editing really kills you are for those who get stuck in "endless" polishing of the smallest little details before they have anything, and as a result never get anywhere. Then having tools to push you past that can be useful.

adamc 3y ago

^This.Maybe part of the problem is that I've been around a while, and already have a bunch of habits around writing, and one of them is that I like to edit while I write, because writing is an attempt to work out what I actually think. Having something that blocks me from editing as I write would be a huge downgrade. Zero interest.

cratermoon 3y ago

On the Basher/Swooper working style, I believe there value for each type to incorporate a little of the other type. Through most of my education, I was a Basher. I didn't write drafts, I wrote start to finish, but it was never as good as I'd wished. Later in life I began to deliberately practice some of the Swooper techniques, and my writing got more satisfying. It's possible the difference is somewhat generational as well, because the Basher style is suitable for writing with the somewhat cranky typewriter on paper, because rework is harder. Today, it's almost trivial to mix and mash our writing because all it takes is ctrl-C ctrl-V. Unless you're William S. Burrows, in which case, just don't get too near me with those scissors. https://www.faena.com/aleph/cut-up-the-creative-technique-used-by-burroughs-dylan-bowie-and-cobain https://www.faena.com/aleph/cut-up-the-creative-technique-us...

Ingaz 3y ago

It's same for me. But now I think maybe it's good to try other way.