4 ms·

This comment is "not even wrong". I'm not sure how much more "alive" you expect something like pollen to be (or most allergens, which are usually proteins or p

by epgui 3y ago

This comment is "not even wrong". I'm not sure how much more "alive" you expect something like pollen to be (or most allergens, which are usually proteins or protein fragments). Nobody is claiming that antibodies are binding to whole-cats or whole-dogs. They normally bind to protein, and sometimes to protein-coupled-with-small-molecules. It's fairly notable for there to be Abs against synthetic molecules, even if PEG is technically organic, and a relatively large molecule.

spondylosaurus 3y ago
? The person I was replying to mentioned "not an organism that can react to the threat," which I took to mean a bacterium or virus. The former of which is definitely alive, and the latter debatably so. What I was trying to convey is that your immune system regularly responds to things that are not active invading organisms. Peanut butter is organic, sure, but it's not a living creature that your body needs to shut down. Doesn't stop some people's immune systems from firing up regardless. Hence also: "it would be interesting to be evaluate whether the antibodies actually have an effect"—allergies are one way that antibodies can have an effect against an otherwise inert/harmless substance.
- epgui 3y ago
  Antibodies do not target bacteria or viruses. They target protein that are present on bacteria or viruses. Protein are not alive, but they are a component of live organisms. Protein present in peanut butter come from the plant that produces peanuts, which is just as alive (if not more) than microorganisms. The only difference between the two are the time scales involved, and the natural selection forces in play... But that seems irrelevant here. Your immune system has no notion of whether an antigen is alive or not. One way or another, it makes no difference. For the allergy example, there is nothing special there either. Your body is reacting to the allergen (a protein) in essentially the same way it would react to a helminth (or rather, to helminth protein). It doesn't know the difference.
  - spondylosaurus 3y ago
    > Protein present in peanut butter come from the plant that produces peanuts, which is just as alive (if not more) than microorganisms. Right, but peanut butter itself is not alive. I never claimed that it's inorganic, only that a morsel of peanut butter is not a living creature, and specifically not a living creature that makes (most people) sick. > Your immune system has no notion of whether an antigen is alive or not. One way or another, it makes no difference. This is also what I was trying to convey, albeit in laymen's terms. As I understood it, the person I initially replied to wondered what would happen if your immune system reacted to a(n organic but) non-living substance. And the answer is that your immune system still reacts, but the reaction doesn't accomplish anything useful or necessary, and that's why no one likes having MS or a pet dander allergy. At least when your immune system reacts to a coronavirus, it's for a good reason—to clear out the virus.
    - epgui 3y ago
      Sounds like we're in agreement! I may have been picky about wording.
    - samus 3y ago
      To help clear up the disagreement: the difference I had in mind is that things like peanut butter and PEG cannot adapt to escape the immune response. Viruses and bacteria can. Antibodies against them can be detected after an infection, but they might not be effective at all.

by epgui 3y ago

spondylosaurus 3y ago

? The person I was replying to mentioned "not an organism that can react to the threat," which I took to mean a bacterium or virus. The former of which is definitely alive, and the latter debatably so. What I was trying to convey is that your immune system regularly responds to things that are not active invading organisms. Peanut butter is organic, sure, but it's not a living creature that your body needs to shut down. Doesn't stop some people's immune systems from firing up regardless. Hence also: "it would be interesting to be evaluate whether the antibodies actually have an effect"—allergies are one way that antibodies can have an effect against an otherwise inert/harmless substance.

epgui 3y ago
Antibodies do not target bacteria or viruses. They target protein that are present on bacteria or viruses. Protein are not alive, but they are a component of live organisms. Protein present in peanut butter come from the plant that produces peanuts, which is just as alive (if not more) than microorganisms. The only difference between the two are the time scales involved, and the natural selection forces in play... But that seems irrelevant here. Your immune system has no notion of whether an antigen is alive or not. One way or another, it makes no difference. For the allergy example, there is nothing special there either. Your body is reacting to the allergen (a protein) in essentially the same way it would react to a helminth (or rather, to helminth protein). It doesn't know the difference.
- spondylosaurus 3y ago
  > Protein present in peanut butter come from the plant that produces peanuts, which is just as alive (if not more) than microorganisms. Right, but peanut butter itself is not alive. I never claimed that it's inorganic, only that a morsel of peanut butter is not a living creature, and specifically not a living creature that makes (most people) sick. > Your immune system has no notion of whether an antigen is alive or not. One way or another, it makes no difference. This is also what I was trying to convey, albeit in laymen's terms. As I understood it, the person I initially replied to wondered what would happen if your immune system reacted to a(n organic but) non-living substance. And the answer is that your immune system still reacts, but the reaction doesn't accomplish anything useful or necessary, and that's why no one likes having MS or a pet dander allergy. At least when your immune system reacts to a coronavirus, it's for a good reason—to clear out the virus.
  - epgui 3y ago
    Sounds like we're in agreement! I may have been picky about wording.
  - samus 3y ago
    To help clear up the disagreement: the difference I had in mind is that things like peanut butter and PEG cannot adapt to escape the immune response. Viruses and bacteria can. Antibodies against them can be detected after an infection, but they might not be effective at all.