4 ms·

> The usually cited “most glaring” passages in Leviticus (Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13), read strictly literally, don’t condemn homosexuality per se, but both partners

> The usually cited “most glaring” passages in Leviticus (Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13), read strictly literally, don’t condemn homosexuality per se, but both partners in a male homosexual act where one of them also engages heterosexual sex. Curious how you get that interpretation out of those texts? From "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable", I read "as one does with a woman", as an analogy. Do you have reason to read it otherwise?

dragonwriter 3y ago
One interesting issue about Scripture is that it gets rewritten to support doctrinal positions; neither the KJV (which, admittedly, sometimes plays games with language specifically for the way thing sound) not many modern translations with strong scholarship separate out the subjects of who is having sex with men vs who is doing it with women the way your quote does; OTOH, its found in some translations that purport strictness, and lots of admittedly freer translations and paraphrases (some of which go further, like the The Living Bible, and just rewrite to condemn “homosexuality” with that word.) OTOH, I just realized I don't know what is true of the version used by this app, because while for some reason I thought it was KJV, I'm not sure what version it is using currently (there's a reference to starting with using the KJV implying something else is used now, but its not clear what that is.) So the comment about what those verses contain, as relates to the app, may or may not be correct.
- chris_st 3y ago
  Two things: some folks just say, "the Bible was rewritten!!!!!!" with no evidence, just that it's an old text. Biblical textual criticism is a lot more complex than that, of course, and we do have pre-BC texts of Leviticus to compare to. So, arguably, these things can be checked. Second, there's the "all translators mangle things, often to support existing dogma" which is a lot harder. The version I quoted is the English Standard Version, which is a very highly respected modern translation. Translation is hard, even with modern languages. So I'd want to see someone with actual Ancient Hebrew credentials to explain it.
chris_st 3y ago
You can also look at Romans 1:26-27 (see a modern translation, as we've discussed in parallel comments).
froh 3y ago
oh there we go. this is a debate completely unrelated to the OP post. and the so called "clobber passages" and a holistic accepting Christian view at sexual orientation minorities and gender identity minorities has been discussed at nauseam. you find them easily searching for "LGBT+ friendly affirming Christian ressources" god bless you, those you love and those you don't love yet.
- chris_st 3y ago
  Okay, possibly unrelated, but a good question, yes? I find any time someone says, "Yes, that's what the Bible says, but no, that's not what the Bible means!" you're on very thin ice, regardless if it's said by a person in a pulpit or a person throwing (metaphorical) stones. I'm also eager to learn where I'm wrong about something... if I've misunderstood something, I want to be enlightened.
  - froh 3y ago
    call to authority or lack thereof hm? look, I'm a Catholic lesbian in Germany, married to a wife, and we have an active church life with our family with our two kids. I find any time someone claiming the Bible means what it says, literally, you're on very thin ice, regardless if it comes from a pulpit or if it comes from a person trying to (again) slander or misrepresent my family as "evil" or "sinful" or "intrinsically disordered". I have skin in this game and I have my fair share of wounds from well meaning misguided love the sinner hate the sin bigotry. wrt your curiosity I said and I say it again: "LGBT+ friendly affirming Christian ressources" finds you _plenty_ of elaborate treatises. I'm out.

dragonwriter 3y ago

One interesting issue about Scripture is that it gets rewritten to support doctrinal positions; neither the KJV (which, admittedly, sometimes plays games with language specifically for the way thing sound) not many modern translations with strong scholarship separate out the subjects of who is having sex with men vs who is doing it with women the way your quote does; OTOH, its found in some translations that purport strictness, and lots of admittedly freer translations and paraphrases (some of which go further, like the The Living Bible, and just rewrite to condemn “homosexuality” with that word.) OTOH, I just realized I don't know what is true of the version used by this app, because while for some reason I thought it was KJV, I'm not sure what version it is using currently (there's a reference to starting with using the KJV implying something else is used now, but its not clear what that is.) So the comment about what those verses contain, as relates to the app, may or may not be correct.

chris_st 3y ago
Two things: some folks just say, "the Bible was rewritten!!!!!!" with no evidence, just that it's an old text. Biblical textual criticism is a lot more complex than that, of course, and we do have pre-BC texts of Leviticus to compare to. So, arguably, these things can be checked. Second, there's the "all translators mangle things, often to support existing dogma" which is a lot harder. The version I quoted is the English Standard Version, which is a very highly respected modern translation. Translation is hard, even with modern languages. So I'd want to see someone with actual Ancient Hebrew credentials to explain it.

chris_st 3y ago

You can also look at Romans 1:26-27 (see a modern translation, as we've discussed in parallel comments).

froh 3y ago

oh there we go. this is a debate completely unrelated to the OP post. and the so called "clobber passages" and a holistic accepting Christian view at sexual orientation minorities and gender identity minorities has been discussed at nauseam. you find them easily searching for "LGBT+ friendly affirming Christian ressources" god bless you, those you love and those you don't love yet.

chris_st 3y ago
Okay, possibly unrelated, but a good question, yes? I find any time someone says, "Yes, that's what the Bible says, but no, that's not what the Bible means!" you're on very thin ice, regardless if it's said by a person in a pulpit or a person throwing (metaphorical) stones. I'm also eager to learn where I'm wrong about something... if I've misunderstood something, I want to be enlightened.
- froh 3y ago
  call to authority or lack thereof hm? look, I'm a Catholic lesbian in Germany, married to a wife, and we have an active church life with our family with our two kids. I find any time someone claiming the Bible means what it says, literally, you're on very thin ice, regardless if it comes from a pulpit or if it comes from a person trying to (again) slander or misrepresent my family as "evil" or "sinful" or "intrinsically disordered". I have skin in this game and I have my fair share of wounds from well meaning misguided love the sinner hate the sin bigotry. wrt your curiosity I said and I say it again: "LGBT+ friendly affirming Christian ressources" finds you _plenty_ of elaborate treatises. I'm out.