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> visa applicants aren't US citizens and aren't in the US, so they don't have the same set of rights that citizens do, nor should they. That was a strong Kool-

> visa applicants aren't US citizens and aren't in the US, so they don't have the same set of rights that citizens do, nor should they. That was a strong Kool-Aid. There are universal human rights, there is no need to grant applicants USA constitutional rights to respect the former. It's a matter of decency and honesty, you are not free to infringe the privacy of others just because they weren't born in a different soil than you. Of course, human rights are constantly abused at several degrees all over the world, but geez, at least try to be discrete about it.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> universal human rights, there is no need to grant applicants USA constitutional rights to respect the former I don’t see how denying a visa constitutes infringing on someone’s freedom of speech at the level of a human rights violation. > infringe the privacy of others These are public social media posts. Not private messages.
- ASalazarMX 3y ago
  Don't be intentionally (I hope) obtuse. I'm not saying everyone should get a visa, I'm saying universal human rights should be repected by all governments that supposedly recognized them. Allow or deny the visa, but respect the applicant's dignity. Privacy is one of those analienable universal human rights recognized by the UN, and demanding to see the social networks of other is infringing it, regardless of citizenship or immigration status. It's not only a faceless government employee(s) probing and ogling your social life, social networks allow private messaging, which becomes non-private after these unreasonable demands. Don't normalize the erosion of human rights.
adrr 3y ago
Should we disband the CIA and NSA since all they are focused on spying on non citizens.
- gustavus 3y ago
  > the CIA and NSA since all they are focused on spying on non citizens. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's a good one.
  - paganel 3y ago
    I wonder when will the NSA also get its own drone program to shoot at Middle East weddings. They must be feeling down seeing how the intelligence gatherers from the CIA are now in the business of waging aerial war, while they, the NSA, are left with the boring office work.
    - DANmode 3y ago
      I don't think I would describe the CTF Pro Leagues as "boring office work"!
- theknocker 3y ago
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- krapp 3y ago
  Yes. Not for that specific reason, though. The CIA for its human rights abuses, experimentation on American citizens, torture, mass murder and support for violent autocratic regimes and terrorists around the world, and the NSA for all of its various domestic surveillance and data mining activities.
  - ghostpepper 3y ago
    This is not a real suggestion to have no spy agencies, right? Is every other country going to follow suit? Would you have the US disband their military as well? Or should they just deploy it without any sort of intelligence gathering?
    - krapp 3y ago
      > This is not a real suggestion to have no spy agencies, right? I do think we should not have these specific agencies, because they've proven themselves too corrupt, and we should consider a "defund" strategy for our entire military industrial complex, completely dismantling the existing systems and replacing them with something a little less... evil? Certainly scaled back by a few orders of magnitude. But then the only reason these agencies act the way they do and get away with it is because the government wants it that way. So maybe just burn it all down, I don't know. I'm starting to think Thomas Jefferson was right and we should at least try to shoot all the politicians, rip up the Constitution and start over every 20 years. So not a realistic suggestion, no. > Would you have the US disband their military as well? Honestly I think the world would be better off if the US only had the national guard and a small purely defensive coastal navy like Japan. Maybe not randomly fuck up Asian or Middle Eastern countries every few years in the name of oil or Jesus or kickbacks to Lockheed Martin.
DonaldTruck 3y ago
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mike_d 3y ago
> There are universal human rights Admittance to the United States is not a universal right. If I wanted to move to Europe right now, it is a lengthy painful process just like an alien trying to move to the US. Applicants will be screened. Reviewing what you say publicly about the United States as part of that process is not a privacy violation. If you are making statements that you want to blow up buildings or steal nuclear secrets, it is very reasonable to deny you entry.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > If I wanted to move to Europe right now, it is a lengthy painful process just like an alien trying to move to the US. Moving permanently is one thing, but Europeans have to go through that bullshit even for tourist visas, while all y'all need is your passport because our dumbass politicians didn't insist on reciprocity. [1] https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/before-you-go/travelers-with-special-considerations/schengen.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra...
  - jkaplowitz 3y ago
    > Moving permanently is one thing, but Europeans have to go through that bullshit even for tourist visas, Most Europeans get to use the quick and relatively cheap shortcut of ESTA/VWP rather than needing to apply for a full tourist visa, though indeed there are exceptions based on nationality or personal history. > while all y'all need is your passport because our dumbass politicians didn't insist on reciprocity. The EU has been working on their own version of ESTA called ETIAS for many years now, which has been repeatedly delayed for EU-internal reasons that as far as I've read have nothing to do with US pressure, like technical/IT delays and a request from France for the related Entry/Exit System not to begin before the Paris Olympics. ETIAS is currently expected to begin operation in 2025 and will apply to US citizens just as it will to every other Schengen-visa exempt third-country nationality. Since you said "Europeans" rather than "EU citizens" or "Schengen citizens", I'll recognize that the UK is still in Europe and note that they're preparing to do the same kind of thing, with their system to be called ETA and also intended to include US citizens once fully implemented. So that will bring approximate reciprocity, again with the exception of those Europeans who don't qualify for the US ESTA/VWP system.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> universal human rights, there is no need to grant applicants USA constitutional rights to respect the former I don’t see how denying a visa constitutes infringing on someone’s freedom of speech at the level of a human rights violation. > infringe the privacy of others These are public social media posts. Not private messages.

ASalazarMX 3y ago
Don't be intentionally (I hope) obtuse. I'm not saying everyone should get a visa, I'm saying universal human rights should be repected by all governments that supposedly recognized them. Allow or deny the visa, but respect the applicant's dignity. Privacy is one of those analienable universal human rights recognized by the UN, and demanding to see the social networks of other is infringing it, regardless of citizenship or immigration status. It's not only a faceless government employee(s) probing and ogling your social life, social networks allow private messaging, which becomes non-private after these unreasonable demands. Don't normalize the erosion of human rights.

adrr 3y ago

Should we disband the CIA and NSA since all they are focused on spying on non citizens.

gustavus 3y ago
> the CIA and NSA since all they are focused on spying on non citizens. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's a good one.
- paganel 3y ago
  I wonder when will the NSA also get its own drone program to shoot at Middle East weddings. They must be feeling down seeing how the intelligence gatherers from the CIA are now in the business of waging aerial war, while they, the NSA, are left with the boring office work.
  - DANmode 3y ago
    I don't think I would describe the CTF Pro Leagues as "boring office work"!
theknocker 3y ago
[dead]
krapp 3y ago
Yes. Not for that specific reason, though. The CIA for its human rights abuses, experimentation on American citizens, torture, mass murder and support for violent autocratic regimes and terrorists around the world, and the NSA for all of its various domestic surveillance and data mining activities.
- ghostpepper 3y ago
  This is not a real suggestion to have no spy agencies, right? Is every other country going to follow suit? Would you have the US disband their military as well? Or should they just deploy it without any sort of intelligence gathering?
  - krapp 3y ago
    > This is not a real suggestion to have no spy agencies, right? I do think we should not have these specific agencies, because they've proven themselves too corrupt, and we should consider a "defund" strategy for our entire military industrial complex, completely dismantling the existing systems and replacing them with something a little less... evil? Certainly scaled back by a few orders of magnitude. But then the only reason these agencies act the way they do and get away with it is because the government wants it that way. So maybe just burn it all down, I don't know. I'm starting to think Thomas Jefferson was right and we should at least try to shoot all the politicians, rip up the Constitution and start over every 20 years. So not a realistic suggestion, no. > Would you have the US disband their military as well? Honestly I think the world would be better off if the US only had the national guard and a small purely defensive coastal navy like Japan. Maybe not randomly fuck up Asian or Middle Eastern countries every few years in the name of oil or Jesus or kickbacks to Lockheed Martin.

DonaldTruck 3y ago

[dead]

mike_d 3y ago

> There are universal human rights Admittance to the United States is not a universal right. If I wanted to move to Europe right now, it is a lengthy painful process just like an alien trying to move to the US. Applicants will be screened. Reviewing what you say publicly about the United States as part of that process is not a privacy violation. If you are making statements that you want to blow up buildings or steal nuclear secrets, it is very reasonable to deny you entry.

mschuster91 3y ago
> If I wanted to move to Europe right now, it is a lengthy painful process just like an alien trying to move to the US. Moving permanently is one thing, but Europeans have to go through that bullshit even for tourist visas, while all y'all need is your passport because our dumbass politicians didn't insist on reciprocity. [1] https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/before-you-go/travelers-with-special-considerations/schengen.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra...
- jkaplowitz 3y ago
  > Moving permanently is one thing, but Europeans have to go through that bullshit even for tourist visas, Most Europeans get to use the quick and relatively cheap shortcut of ESTA/VWP rather than needing to apply for a full tourist visa, though indeed there are exceptions based on nationality or personal history. > while all y'all need is your passport because our dumbass politicians didn't insist on reciprocity. The EU has been working on their own version of ESTA called ETIAS for many years now, which has been repeatedly delayed for EU-internal reasons that as far as I've read have nothing to do with US pressure, like technical/IT delays and a request from France for the related Entry/Exit System not to begin before the Paris Olympics. ETIAS is currently expected to begin operation in 2025 and will apply to US citizens just as it will to every other Schengen-visa exempt third-country nationality. Since you said "Europeans" rather than "EU citizens" or "Schengen citizens", I'll recognize that the UK is still in Europe and note that they're preparing to do the same kind of thing, with their system to be called ETA and also intended to include US citizens once fully implemented. So that will bring approximate reciprocity, again with the exception of those Europeans who don't qualify for the US ESTA/VWP system.