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>Also, the main damage from cars isn't the manufacturing — over the vehicle lifetimes, the emissions from literally burning fuel far out-mass the manufacturing

>Also, the main damage from cars isn't the manufacturing — over the vehicle lifetimes, the emissions from literally burning fuel far out-mass the manufacturing emissions. Again, personal vehicle ICE fuel burning is only a relatively small part of global emissions (about 9%). People are just fixate on it because it happens in their back yard so that's all they see everyday as the main polluter instead of the giant mines in Australia and Africa or the giant factory towns in China, or the oil wells, air travel, shipping industry, etc. But there are lower hanging fruit which are a lot more environmentally damaging than those 9% of ICEs, except nobody's talking about them berceuse those are all big industry related and it's much cheaper to push the blame on the 9% powerless peasants driving ICEs so you can sell them EVs, instead of dealing and hurting the profits of the giant polluting industries out there that account for the other 90% and onto which the lifestyle of the world is tied to. Rich western countries moving to EVs in 10 years will not alleviate this if countries like China, India and from Africa mine and burn even more fossil fuels as they industrialized further and lift even more people out of poverty. >Not even close, and I don't know why your beliefs are so badly calibrated. It's not my belief, it's been scientifically proven that the planet's climate cannot sustain the emissions from the mining and manufacturing efforts of transitioning all ICE cars on the road today to EVs. >If we even attempt to solve greenhouse gas emissions just by reducing overall economic consumption, then whoever ignores that edict can trivially take over the world That's the reason the climate issue will never be solved and why we're heading towards the iceberg of environmental destruction full speed ahead. Because everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. Nobody wants to tone down on consumerism, wealth building and lifestyle enabled by fossil fuels, oil, gas, petroleum and manufacturing. Something has to give. You either want to be rich enough to feed and house every mouth on the planet, or you want to have a habitable planet with less well off mouths on it. You can't have both with our current lifestyle and trajectory. That's why we're doomed to destroy ourselves. Because no country or individual wants to compromise on their wealth and lifestyle. On this path we can expect extreme climate phenomenons to increase in strength and frequency, along with more famine, political and economic instability, wars and refugees. EVs alone won't save us from this.

ben_w 3y ago
> Again, personal vehicle ICE fuel burning is only a relatively small part of global emissions (about 9%) And two of your examples — air travel, shipping industry — are 1.9 and 1.7%: https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector And the correct reduction is 99.9%. Which means that everything except cars would be 8.9% too much, assuming your 9% is correct (seems a bit much given all road transport was 11.9%, but that graph is from 2016 so I can buy it). > except nobody's talking about them Oh, we are. Some of us even blame only the big companies for all the combined emissions of their customers. And I've been watching people blame China for everything even when they were a smaller emitter than the USA. > Rich western countries moving to EVs in 10 years will not alleviate this if countries like China, India and from Africa mine and burn even more fossil fuels as they industrialized further and lift even more people out of poverty. Obviously. Good thing the biggest market for EVs right now is… China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country#/media/File:Top_PEV_global_markets_stock_2017_final_with_California.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country#/m... Also a good thing that the cheapest sources of energy now is renewables. > it's been scientifically proven that the planet's climate cannot sustain the emissions from the mining and manufacturing efforts of transitioning all ICE cars on the road today to EVs. False, and I still have no idea why you believe this. Hint: All of those things can be electrified. When the electricity itself is carbon-friendly, they can also be carbon-friendly. The mining can even be a carbon sink, thanks to how weathering works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_weathering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_weathering > You can't have both with our current lifestyle and trajectory. Not with that attitude you can't. Good thing we're still inventing new solutions that can feed and house people without climate damage. > EVs alone won't save us from this. "Alone" is not, and never has been, part of my claim. "Help" is.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >False, and I still have no idea why you believe this. OK, then I guess I'll have to take your word for it and dismiss what scientists say. /s >All of those things can be electrified. Nope not even closely, you're juste delluding yourself with copium, hopes and dreams. And plus, electrical machines don't magically appear out of the sky but you need to manufacture them (often in dirty ways and processes in 3rd world countries) using materials mined from the ground with polluting processes. You want a clean planet with exclusively clean products? Then you need to assure not that your end product (the EV) is clean but also that your entire supply chain from the ore extraction to the recycling of the end-of-life product is clean, and we're incredibly far away from that with no signs that it's measurably improving. >Also a good thing that the cheapest sources of energy now is renewables. That's why India and China have been buying Russian fossil fuels like crazy since the war made them cheaper? Again, you're only talking form a privilege wealthy westerner perspective who has abundant access to renewable energy, but you clearly have no idea what kind of dirty energy powers the reest of the world.

ben_w 3y ago

> Again, personal vehicle ICE fuel burning is only a relatively small part of global emissions (about 9%) And two of your examples — air travel, shipping industry — are 1.9 and 1.7%: https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector And the correct reduction is 99.9%. Which means that everything except cars would be 8.9% too much, assuming your 9% is correct (seems a bit much given all road transport was 11.9%, but that graph is from 2016 so I can buy it). > except nobody's talking about them Oh, we are. Some of us even blame only the big companies for all the combined emissions of their customers. And I've been watching people blame China for everything even when they were a smaller emitter than the USA. > Rich western countries moving to EVs in 10 years will not alleviate this if countries like China, India and from Africa mine and burn even more fossil fuels as they industrialized further and lift even more people out of poverty. Obviously. Good thing the biggest market for EVs right now is… China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country#/media/File:Top_PEV_global_markets_stock_2017_final_with_California.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country#/m... Also a good thing that the cheapest sources of energy now is renewables. > it's been scientifically proven that the planet's climate cannot sustain the emissions from the mining and manufacturing efforts of transitioning all ICE cars on the road today to EVs. False, and I still have no idea why you believe this. Hint: All of those things can be electrified. When the electricity itself is carbon-friendly, they can also be carbon-friendly. The mining can even be a carbon sink, thanks to how weathering works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_weathering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_weathering > You can't have both with our current lifestyle and trajectory. Not with that attitude you can't. Good thing we're still inventing new solutions that can feed and house people without climate damage. > EVs alone won't save us from this. "Alone" is not, and never has been, part of my claim. "Help" is.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>False, and I still have no idea why you believe this. OK, then I guess I'll have to take your word for it and dismiss what scientists say. /s >All of those things can be electrified. Nope not even closely, you're juste delluding yourself with copium, hopes and dreams. And plus, electrical machines don't magically appear out of the sky but you need to manufacture them (often in dirty ways and processes in 3rd world countries) using materials mined from the ground with polluting processes. You want a clean planet with exclusively clean products? Then you need to assure not that your end product (the EV) is clean but also that your entire supply chain from the ore extraction to the recycling of the end-of-life product is clean, and we're incredibly far away from that with no signs that it's measurably improving. >Also a good thing that the cheapest sources of energy now is renewables. That's why India and China have been buying Russian fossil fuels like crazy since the war made them cheaper? Again, you're only talking form a privilege wealthy westerner perspective who has abundant access to renewable energy, but you clearly have no idea what kind of dirty energy powers the reest of the world.