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> (And shale gas is one of the reasons for the drop... gas power does better for CO₂ emissions than coal is, and the fracking boom basically killed a lot of the

> (And shale gas is one of the reasons for the drop... gas power does better for CO₂ emissions than coal is, and the fracking boom basically killed a lot of the coal industry.) Natural gas is better in isolation at point-of-use, but that assumes that none of it escapes into the atmosphere at any point along the (literal) pipeline - which, as it turns out, is not a safe assumption, due to shoddy pipelines. As a greenhouse gas, natural gas is actually a few orders of magnitude worse than carbon dioxide[0], so if even a very small amount leaks out it not only wipes out any gains you get from using natural gas instead of coal, but quickly becomes a solution that's worse than the problem. We probably haven't seen the worst of it yet: in practice, companies have very little long-term liability for the environmental impact of the mining infrastructure as it ages and after it is abandoned, at which point it becomes an effective pump of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. With nobody else responsible for the expensive task, it will probably be up to the government to clean it all up. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-gas-climatebox-explainer/explainer-cleaner-but-not-clean-why-scientists-say-natural-gas-wont-avert-climate-disaster-idUSKCN25E1DR https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-gas-climatebox-explai...

avmich 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_methane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_methane Methane is a strong GHG with a global warming potential 84 times greater than CO2 in a 20-year time frame. Methane is not as persistent a gas and tails off to about 28 times greater than CO2 for a 100-year time frame. So, methane is shorter-lived in the atmosphere than CO2. We need good numbers, of course, to have a good decision.
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > Methane is a strong GHG with a global warming potential 84 times greater than CO2 in a 20-year time frame. Methane is not as persistent a gas and tails off to about 28 times greater than CO2 for a 100-year time frame. That was already discussed in the article I linked. A 100-year timeframe is not relevant for either the 2005-present timeframe or the 2050 goal, which are the benchmarks being discussed.
  - avmich 3y ago
    It wasn't mentioned in the comment itself. And of course 100-year timeframe behavior can hint at much shorter timeframe behavior, which is quite relevant.
- mindslight 3y ago
  Terrible idea: grassroots movement that releases the highest short-term GWP but shortest-lived gas into the atmosphere (Hydrogen?). The idea being humanity isn't going to seriously address the topic until the pain ramps up to a certain level, and that happening from a gas that will dissipate by itself leaves us in a much better position than carbon dioxide that will have to be sequestered to remove it.

avmich 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_methane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_methane Methane is a strong GHG with a global warming potential 84 times greater than CO2 in a 20-year time frame. Methane is not as persistent a gas and tails off to about 28 times greater than CO2 for a 100-year time frame. So, methane is shorter-lived in the atmosphere than CO2. We need good numbers, of course, to have a good decision.

chimeracoder 3y ago
> Methane is a strong GHG with a global warming potential 84 times greater than CO2 in a 20-year time frame. Methane is not as persistent a gas and tails off to about 28 times greater than CO2 for a 100-year time frame. That was already discussed in the article I linked. A 100-year timeframe is not relevant for either the 2005-present timeframe or the 2050 goal, which are the benchmarks being discussed.
- avmich 3y ago
  It wasn't mentioned in the comment itself. And of course 100-year timeframe behavior can hint at much shorter timeframe behavior, which is quite relevant.
mindslight 3y ago
Terrible idea: grassroots movement that releases the highest short-term GWP but shortest-lived gas into the atmosphere (Hydrogen?). The idea being humanity isn't going to seriously address the topic until the pain ramps up to a certain level, and that happening from a gas that will dissipate by itself leaves us in a much better position than carbon dioxide that will have to be sequestered to remove it.