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Serious question: say burning garbage had no detrimental impact, it would be the best solution right? We know that's not the case (don't we?) so how do we move

Serious question: say burning garbage had no detrimental impact, it would be the best solution right? We know that's not the case (don't we?) so how do we move through that particular "solution-tree" to get to the right practical solution/implementation? Not sure if what I'm saying is cogent but I feel like there's an ideological game of hide and seek not being played or someone is "it" and simply leaving the rest of the players to hide but they lobbied against a rule that allowed for unoffical games of hide and seek and insisted they are only ever "it" and the rest of the players can't gather and create their own non-sanctioned game that disincludes the current player and that the current instance can never actually end to allow for a new game.

kleton 3y ago
Japan incinerates essentially all of their trash, and it's not a polluted hellscape.
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  So why aren't we doing that? Like what's the rub? And it better not be BigRecycling or imma lose my mind right now (you know what I mean) :/
  - kleton 3y ago
    Long ago, they tried burning trash in other countries and it was just basically an open burn pit, so incineration is a political no-go. Even though now it's possible to attain essentially complete oxidation and no nox/sox/ash in flue gas.
    - Obscurity4340 3y ago
      You're telling me that a/the solution is to do exactly what all the "burn baby burn" people are sort of saying in some sense?
      - orangepurple 3y ago
        The solution is to burn everything and aggressively scrub the exhaust
        Obscurity4340 3y ago
        Dingdingding! So how do we make it happen? Is there anyone with "eco"-credibillity who is saying exactly this?
- wahnfrieden 3y ago
  >Nevertheless, every incinerator produces excess GHG emissions and therefore every state’s GHG emissions intensity is higher than it would be without incinerators. These results are consistent with those of Tabata [83], who analyzed 727 power-producing incinerators in Japan and found that only five did not produce excess fossil CO2 emissions.
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    Ya but do they quantify the corresponding emissions created in the aggregate by our alternative efforts to deal with waste disposal and if that is the case, is it still clear that "our" way is superior to "Japan"'s way with respect to: 1) GHG emissions 2) palpable and visible environmental pollution/damage 3) cost 4) reliabillity (labour/cost/lack of long-term potentiation of any existing or novel variable that is reasonably foreseeable based on existing knowledge as informed by current data
    - Obscurity4340 3y ago
      Like, by you saying what you're saying and if Japan indeed operates in their way, than there's a contradition to the effect that Japan's really being hurt more than helped by it and its one of those "dolphin" areas for them
  - rafaelmn 3y ago
    We're still burning coal and gas for power - burning thrash is win/win in that regard. Problem with incinerators is nobody wants one in their backyard, despite safety claims.
    - Obscurity4340 3y ago
      Is that like legit the rub that I'm talking about? Imma be so fucking pissed if this is ultimately all-rooted in freakin NIMBYers and Boomer Entitlement in general bullshit
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    Also, I feel as if the world hears they can burn their garbage so thats one less thing to worry about going forward, makes the world and hopefully everyone in it a little more receptive to the idea of everybody pooling our funding (to replace other garbage garbage programs in place) and start where emissions are worst and burn baby burn however it can be done properly. Its insane we're not already doing this if all the other stuff is more likely than not true.
aksss 3y ago
Obviously burning is not the only alternative to shipping trash to poorer countries with loose or non-existent enviro and handling standards. Burying our own trash in landfills (regardless of location) has a lot of upsides if done well and maintained correctly. We still wouldn’t want to be growing our crops atop it - I don’t think..
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  I want to get to the bottom of WHY we even need to even ponder any of those or extend the line of inquiry any further if Japan's approach "works"... That Japan does this and it "works" is blowing my mind right now. That is extremely compelling and provocative in the context of this discussion so now I wanna know why we're making this more complicated by insisting on searching for a solution to a problem that already has one, however inelegant or politically inconvenient it is. I am not accusing you when I suggest we're making this more complicated, just making a hopefully reasonable inference that if burning works and this all comes down to a political communication/advocacy ("PR issue"), then I will happy join the "burn it all" crowd). But, you know, respectfully.
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    There's got to be more to this story if its true as to why we are even still discussing this issue

kleton 3y ago

Japan incinerates essentially all of their trash, and it's not a polluted hellscape.

Obscurity4340 3y ago
So why aren't we doing that? Like what's the rub? And it better not be BigRecycling or imma lose my mind right now (you know what I mean) :/
- kleton 3y ago
  Long ago, they tried burning trash in other countries and it was just basically an open burn pit, so incineration is a political no-go. Even though now it's possible to attain essentially complete oxidation and no nox/sox/ash in flue gas.
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    You're telling me that a/the solution is to do exactly what all the "burn baby burn" people are sort of saying in some sense?
    - orangepurple 3y ago
      The solution is to burn everything and aggressively scrub the exhaust
      - Obscurity4340 3y ago
        Dingdingding! So how do we make it happen? Is there anyone with "eco"-credibillity who is saying exactly this?
wahnfrieden 3y ago
>Nevertheless, every incinerator produces excess GHG emissions and therefore every state’s GHG emissions intensity is higher than it would be without incinerators. These results are consistent with those of Tabata [83], who analyzed 727 power-producing incinerators in Japan and found that only five did not produce excess fossil CO2 emissions.
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  Ya but do they quantify the corresponding emissions created in the aggregate by our alternative efforts to deal with waste disposal and if that is the case, is it still clear that "our" way is superior to "Japan"'s way with respect to: 1) GHG emissions 2) palpable and visible environmental pollution/damage 3) cost 4) reliabillity (labour/cost/lack of long-term potentiation of any existing or novel variable that is reasonably foreseeable based on existing knowledge as informed by current data
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    Like, by you saying what you're saying and if Japan indeed operates in their way, than there's a contradition to the effect that Japan's really being hurt more than helped by it and its one of those "dolphin" areas for them
- rafaelmn 3y ago
  We're still burning coal and gas for power - burning thrash is win/win in that regard. Problem with incinerators is nobody wants one in their backyard, despite safety claims.
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    Is that like legit the rub that I'm talking about? Imma be so fucking pissed if this is ultimately all-rooted in freakin NIMBYers and Boomer Entitlement in general bullshit
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  Also, I feel as if the world hears they can burn their garbage so thats one less thing to worry about going forward, makes the world and hopefully everyone in it a little more receptive to the idea of everybody pooling our funding (to replace other garbage garbage programs in place) and start where emissions are worst and burn baby burn however it can be done properly. Its insane we're not already doing this if all the other stuff is more likely than not true.

aksss 3y ago

Obviously burning is not the only alternative to shipping trash to poorer countries with loose or non-existent enviro and handling standards. Burying our own trash in landfills (regardless of location) has a lot of upsides if done well and maintained correctly. We still wouldn’t want to be growing our crops atop it - I don’t think..

Obscurity4340 3y ago
I want to get to the bottom of WHY we even need to even ponder any of those or extend the line of inquiry any further if Japan's approach "works"... That Japan does this and it "works" is blowing my mind right now. That is extremely compelling and provocative in the context of this discussion so now I wanna know why we're making this more complicated by insisting on searching for a solution to a problem that already has one, however inelegant or politically inconvenient it is. I am not accusing you when I suggest we're making this more complicated, just making a hopefully reasonable inference that if burning works and this all comes down to a political communication/advocacy ("PR issue"), then I will happy join the "burn it all" crowd). But, you know, respectfully.
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  There's got to be more to this story if its true as to why we are even still discussing this issue