4 ms·

Could someone please summarize what the expected timeframe would be? How long until leaded avgas is not used?

civilitty 3y ago
It’ll probably take another 10-20 years to outright ban it. Though the EPA might make it illegal to manufacture any engines that use leaded gas far sooner than that. Now that there is an unleaded alternative, older planes will slowly replace their engines at the next engine rebuild. There is a grave pilot shortage already and the FAA loathes to make GA even more inaccessible than it already is so it’ll be a slow process.
- pc86 3y ago
  > older planes will slowly replace their engines at the next engine rebuild An alternative exists, but the FAA needs to certify it for each aircraft type. The majority of aircraft types are not certified for this. No A&P is going to do this because the plane won't be legal to fly in most cases. And at the risk of editorializing, I've never seen the FAA do anything with the goal to making GA more accessible, at least not intentionally.
  - phkahler 3y ago
    >> An alternative exists, but the FAA needs to certify it for each aircraft type. They have. It's done. nobody needs to worry about liability for switching. Availability will be a short-term problem, and banning leaded fuel will get it fixed quickly. https://www.g100ul.com/ https://www.g100ul.com/
    - lazide 3y ago
      They were talking about changing out engines for the planes, not the fuel.
      - phkahler 3y ago
        Not relevant. You can change fuel with existing engines.
        lazide 3y ago
        That’s why they don’t do engine changes, since it is easier, yes. What was your point point exactly?
- delfinom 3y ago
  There is no requirements for engines to change for unleaded gas. It is fully compatible with existing engines https://www.g100ul.com/ https://www.g100ul.com/ >Will I have to modify my engine or aircraft to use G100UL avgas? >Other than placards, no modifications are required. A small placard is attached to the engine and "stick-on" placards are applied to refueling ports. In addition, there is a short POH supplement added to the AFMS. The engine change is shit pushed by the leaded-gas manufacturing lobby.
- ctennis1 3y ago
  There's also distribution problems. Jet fuel aside, most airports only have one tank for servicing avgas. Once they switch over to non-leaded, now they have a customer base that may not be able to buy from them. Those revenues go to fund the airport operation. There's going to have to be a concerted effort to fix type certificates and fuel distribution all at the same time. A slow effort is going to be more problematic.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Once they switch over to non-leaded, now they have a customer base that may not be able to buy from them G100L is approved for all piston aircraft [1]. The only reason someone couldn't buy from them would be obstinacy. [1] https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2022/september/01/closer-to-an-unleaded-future https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2022/september/...
    - saalweachter 3y ago
      I wonder what the Venn diagram of single-engine plane owners and people who don't like being told what to do looks like. [I am seriously curious; on the one hand, owning and flying a small plane is an expensive, privileged hobby which tends towards the lower-upper-class demographic, but it also requires complying with a shit-ton of government regulation and direction already.]
      - hatsunearu 3y ago
        I'm in the car hobby and considering how many people just think stuff like noise regulation and air quality measures is just nonsense solely on the basis of "I do what I want, bitch", I'm not hopeful.
        froggit 3y ago
        Ever live somewhere without emissions testing? Welding straight pipes in place of cats becomes a point of pride.
- hindsightbias 3y ago
  Cruise just needs to move to flying airplanes. With all the anti-GA and anti-airport astroturfers there will be no one to fly them for their vacations. People just can't see the end result of their ideologies.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > There is a grave pilot shortage already and the FAA loathes to make GA even more inaccessible than it already is Lol, inaccessible? Y'all don't even need airstrips to take on and off, for Part 103 ultralights technically not even a license. Meanwhile, here in Germany, first pay up thousands of euros for the ultralight cert, and you have to use dedicated airstrips instead of your farm's field. Oh and if you want to get beyond ultralight, do everything from scratch for the PPL, no credit/transfers.
  - lazide 3y ago
    How does Germany being pathologically worse in paperwork make it any better?
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      GP claimed GA being inaccessible. It clearly is not, given that ultralight aircraft can be had for a few thousand dollars.
      - lazide 3y ago
        General Aviation is not ultralight aircraft. That is a tiny, tiny portion of GA.
- donbatman 3y ago
  FAA loves making GA inaccessible. They've been really good at it for a long time.
  - mchid 3y ago
    I've got about 50 or 60 pilots from India and Venezuela doing circles around my local airport who would like to differ. What about using G100UL makes it inaccessible? Worst case scenario, if $1 per gallon makes that much of a difference, you can just drive your car less and ride your bike around the neighborhood to offset the cost of fuel.

It’ll probably take another 10-20 years to outright ban it. Though the EPA might make it illegal to manufacture any engines that use leaded gas far sooner than that. Now that there is an unleaded alternative, older planes will slowly replace their engines at the next engine rebuild. There is a grave pilot shortage already and the FAA loathes to make GA even more inaccessible than it already is so it’ll be a slow process.

pc86 3y ago
> older planes will slowly replace their engines at the next engine rebuild An alternative exists, but the FAA needs to certify it for each aircraft type. The majority of aircraft types are not certified for this. No A&P is going to do this because the plane won't be legal to fly in most cases. And at the risk of editorializing, I've never seen the FAA do anything with the goal to making GA more accessible, at least not intentionally.
- phkahler 3y ago
  >> An alternative exists, but the FAA needs to certify it for each aircraft type. They have. It's done. nobody needs to worry about liability for switching. Availability will be a short-term problem, and banning leaded fuel will get it fixed quickly. https://www.g100ul.com/ https://www.g100ul.com/
  - lazide 3y ago
    They were talking about changing out engines for the planes, not the fuel.
    - phkahler 3y ago
      Not relevant. You can change fuel with existing engines.
      - lazide 3y ago
        That’s why they don’t do engine changes, since it is easier, yes. What was your point point exactly?
delfinom 3y ago
There is no requirements for engines to change for unleaded gas. It is fully compatible with existing engines https://www.g100ul.com/ https://www.g100ul.com/ >Will I have to modify my engine or aircraft to use G100UL avgas? >Other than placards, no modifications are required. A small placard is attached to the engine and "stick-on" placards are applied to refueling ports. In addition, there is a short POH supplement added to the AFMS. The engine change is shit pushed by the leaded-gas manufacturing lobby.
ctennis1 3y ago
There's also distribution problems. Jet fuel aside, most airports only have one tank for servicing avgas. Once they switch over to non-leaded, now they have a customer base that may not be able to buy from them. Those revenues go to fund the airport operation. There's going to have to be a concerted effort to fix type certificates and fuel distribution all at the same time. A slow effort is going to be more problematic.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Once they switch over to non-leaded, now they have a customer base that may not be able to buy from them G100L is approved for all piston aircraft [1]. The only reason someone couldn't buy from them would be obstinacy. [1] https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2022/september/01/closer-to-an-unleaded-future https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2022/september/...
  - saalweachter 3y ago
    I wonder what the Venn diagram of single-engine plane owners and people who don't like being told what to do looks like. [I am seriously curious; on the one hand, owning and flying a small plane is an expensive, privileged hobby which tends towards the lower-upper-class demographic, but it also requires complying with a shit-ton of government regulation and direction already.]
    - hatsunearu 3y ago
      I'm in the car hobby and considering how many people just think stuff like noise regulation and air quality measures is just nonsense solely on the basis of "I do what I want, bitch", I'm not hopeful.
      - froggit 3y ago
        Ever live somewhere without emissions testing? Welding straight pipes in place of cats becomes a point of pride.
hindsightbias 3y ago
Cruise just needs to move to flying airplanes. With all the anti-GA and anti-airport astroturfers there will be no one to fly them for their vacations. People just can't see the end result of their ideologies.
mschuster91 3y ago
> There is a grave pilot shortage already and the FAA loathes to make GA even more inaccessible than it already is Lol, inaccessible? Y'all don't even need airstrips to take on and off, for Part 103 ultralights technically not even a license. Meanwhile, here in Germany, first pay up thousands of euros for the ultralight cert, and you have to use dedicated airstrips instead of your farm's field. Oh and if you want to get beyond ultralight, do everything from scratch for the PPL, no credit/transfers.
- lazide 3y ago
  How does Germany being pathologically worse in paperwork make it any better?
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    GP claimed GA being inaccessible. It clearly is not, given that ultralight aircraft can be had for a few thousand dollars.
    - lazide 3y ago
      General Aviation is not ultralight aircraft. That is a tiny, tiny portion of GA.
donbatman 3y ago
FAA loves making GA inaccessible. They've been really good at it for a long time.
- mchid 3y ago
  I've got about 50 or 60 pilots from India and Venezuela doing circles around my local airport who would like to differ. What about using G100UL makes it inaccessible? Worst case scenario, if $1 per gallon makes that much of a difference, you can just drive your car less and ride your bike around the neighborhood to offset the cost of fuel.