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I feel like diagrams should not be pretty. For example, colors should convey meaning rather than being aesthetic or artistic choices. I get that ugly software

I feel like diagrams should not be pretty. For example, colors should convey meaning rather than being aesthetic or artistic choices. I get that ugly software diagrams are not fun to look at, but to me dressing them up is like adding curves to a line chart - yes it's visually appealing but it interferes with the data being conveyed.

bluGill 3y ago
Beauty is useful, but it needs to be the last step. When something like nice people also assume the contents have been polished and so since a lot of work went into thinking about it already it isn't worth the time to question if it is right. You can question if you understand it, but the diagram itself is right and so the problem is you. Most diagrams have not had that must thought put into them. They should look a little ugly because that implies it might not be right so look for errors.
- nkozyra 3y ago
  > They should look a little ugly because that implies it might not be right so look for errors. Weirdly, prettiness is the bigger red flag for me wrt to error. I see that and feel like more attention was put into that than the underlying information. Ugly, brutalistic, utilitarian stuff tends to imply a focus on correctness to me.
- Chris_Newton 3y ago
  Nicely presented data can certainly inspire confidence, which might or might not be justified, but I think attractive presentation can be more than just a sales pitch. Ultimately, we create these visualisations to convey information to someone else, so good presentation should help that someone to navigate and understand that information, and it should avoid introducing unwanted bias or ambiguity. If that means creating an overview of the system architecture for new team members that uses pretty colours and multiple fonts and icons and shaded boxes but that helps them to understand the system more quickly and correctly than an overwhelming page of black-and-white text and arrows, the extra styling has done its job.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    You are confusing good and readable with beautiful. A pencil sketch can be readable and good, yet still look like it can be changed. By contrast if you make it look like perfect it will look like it cannot be changed.
    - Chris_Newton 3y ago
      Sorry, I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make here. Finding ways to present information that are both functional and attractive — and stay both of those things as the information evolves — can be a challenge, but I don’t believe those are completely independent axes and I don’t think achieving and sustaining both in combination is an unrealistic ideal. Indeed, I’ve spent a significant part of my professional life creating specialised user interfaces for various products that try to do exactly that.
      - bluGill 3y ago
        The point is if something looks too polished people assume that polish is all the way. You look at a polished chart different from a sketch. If I show you a napkin sketch of some new idea I have you understand it is new and not well thought out, thus you ask is the big picture idea correct. If instead the same idea is well polished in full color you think the big picture is correct and start looking at details that might need some adjustment. Depending on what sort of feedback you want, you need different types of drawing.
        ska 3y ago
        This is true, and why some diagramming packages include "draft" modes that intentionally change the presentation to make it look less permanent/polished looking.
ompogUe 3y ago
Well, colors can be both pretty and informative. Had to take Color Theory to get my BFA. We learned things like the "speed" of colors: yellow is the "fastest" and purple is the "slowest". Only a little yellow is needed to balance out a lot of purple. Same for balancing the other colors. You use these balances for guiding the eye (lots of yellow on a purple field). When you keep this in mind, diagrams or not, then the output will be "pretty" (not jarring) and "informative" (guiding the eye to the most relevant info).
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
I do really like diagramming tools that have a mode that kinda-sorta looks like a human sketch, though. I feel like it lets me not worry about the thing being pixel perfect. The fewer right angles, the better: I can just draw shapes and put them in roughly the right spots and it'll look fine.

bluGill 3y ago

Beauty is useful, but it needs to be the last step. When something like nice people also assume the contents have been polished and so since a lot of work went into thinking about it already it isn't worth the time to question if it is right. You can question if you understand it, but the diagram itself is right and so the problem is you. Most diagrams have not had that must thought put into them. They should look a little ugly because that implies it might not be right so look for errors.

nkozyra 3y ago
> They should look a little ugly because that implies it might not be right so look for errors. Weirdly, prettiness is the bigger red flag for me wrt to error. I see that and feel like more attention was put into that than the underlying information. Ugly, brutalistic, utilitarian stuff tends to imply a focus on correctness to me.
Chris_Newton 3y ago
Nicely presented data can certainly inspire confidence, which might or might not be justified, but I think attractive presentation can be more than just a sales pitch. Ultimately, we create these visualisations to convey information to someone else, so good presentation should help that someone to navigate and understand that information, and it should avoid introducing unwanted bias or ambiguity. If that means creating an overview of the system architecture for new team members that uses pretty colours and multiple fonts and icons and shaded boxes but that helps them to understand the system more quickly and correctly than an overwhelming page of black-and-white text and arrows, the extra styling has done its job.
- bluGill 3y ago
  You are confusing good and readable with beautiful. A pencil sketch can be readable and good, yet still look like it can be changed. By contrast if you make it look like perfect it will look like it cannot be changed.
  - Chris_Newton 3y ago
    Sorry, I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make here. Finding ways to present information that are both functional and attractive — and stay both of those things as the information evolves — can be a challenge, but I don’t believe those are completely independent axes and I don’t think achieving and sustaining both in combination is an unrealistic ideal. Indeed, I’ve spent a significant part of my professional life creating specialised user interfaces for various products that try to do exactly that.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      The point is if something looks too polished people assume that polish is all the way. You look at a polished chart different from a sketch. If I show you a napkin sketch of some new idea I have you understand it is new and not well thought out, thus you ask is the big picture idea correct. If instead the same idea is well polished in full color you think the big picture is correct and start looking at details that might need some adjustment. Depending on what sort of feedback you want, you need different types of drawing.
      - ska 3y ago
        This is true, and why some diagramming packages include "draft" modes that intentionally change the presentation to make it look less permanent/polished looking.

ompogUe 3y ago

Well, colors can be both pretty and informative. Had to take Color Theory to get my BFA. We learned things like the "speed" of colors: yellow is the "fastest" and purple is the "slowest". Only a little yellow is needed to balance out a lot of purple. Same for balancing the other colors. You use these balances for guiding the eye (lots of yellow on a purple field). When you keep this in mind, diagrams or not, then the output will be "pretty" (not jarring) and "informative" (guiding the eye to the most relevant info).

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago

I do really like diagramming tools that have a mode that kinda-sorta looks like a human sketch, though. I feel like it lets me not worry about the thing being pixel perfect. The fewer right angles, the better: I can just draw shapes and put them in roughly the right spots and it'll look fine.